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 Area of Effect Elemental Manipulations, Now you're bowling with fire |
 Jan 21 2004, 03:13 AM
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#1
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 44 Joined: 22-July 03 Member No.: 5,013  |
Sorry if this is clearly written in the book, I'm at work and can't check. I've always wondered something about area of effect elemental manipulations. Let's say that I'm casting a 6 meter diameter fireball at a target at the end of the hall. Would a 6 meter diameter fireball appear before me and rocket down the hall toward my target (hitting things along the way if they were in the ball's path) or instead would an invisible force travel from me to the target and explode into the 6 meter diameter ball of flame?
My not-really-canon assumption would be the former and as long as nothing physically stopped the entire sphere (or at least the center of it) from reaching the target, it would burn up everything in it's path. Then again, I'm the kinda guy who says it could happen if it makes the scene cooler. -fr |
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Jan 21 2004, 03:16 AM
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#2
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
The description could be anything BUT the effect is that the fireball detonates at your target and affecting everything in its blast radius.
I consider it as a magical grenade. |
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Jan 21 2004, 03:32 AM
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#3
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,362 Joined: 3-October 03 From: Poway, San Diego County, CA, USA Member No.: 5,676 |
I'm pretty sure that the fireball is compressed to the size of a grenade until it hits the target. If a 6-meter radius, not diameter, fireball appeared a foot or less in front of your hand, well, you do the math.
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Jan 21 2004, 06:25 AM
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#4
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Senior GM Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,406 Joined: 12-April 03 From: Redmond, WA Member No.: 4,442 |
Yup, the guys above have it right. The elemental material is small while it travels from the magician to the target. At its destination "it affects targets in the area of effect in the same way as a physical explosion or grenade."
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Jan 21 2004, 06:57 AM
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#5
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
that idea seems hinky, to me. i mean, if it's possible to dodge a fireball, shouldn't it be possible to block one with a held action? say, by shooting at it or throwing something at it?
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Jan 21 2004, 07:06 AM
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#6
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
How do you effectively shoot a ball of fire?
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Jan 21 2004, 07:06 AM
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#7
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,685 Joined: 17-August 02 Member No.: 3,123 |
Only inasmuch as it should be possible to block bullets, arrows, rockets, etc. with held actions. Shooting them seems a lot more hinky to me :)
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Jan 21 2004, 12:02 PM
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#8
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
i dunno. i just have this image of opening up on an armor-spelled mage, bullets spanging off everywhere--and then the mage toasting himself as his attempted fireball detonates against one of the incoming rounds, instead of the intended target.
but, regardless, elemental manips are described as travelling physically from the caster to the target. so, even if shooting doesn't work--what about slamming a door closed in front of the incoming spell? i guess the basic question i'm asking is, what happens when a caster doesn't detect an obstacle between himself and the target, when casting an elemental manip? does it just go off against the first obstacle it encounters? does the spell just fizzle? |
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Jan 21 2004, 12:09 PM
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#9
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 228 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Melbourne Member No.: 652 |
Actually you made me think of a suped up phys-ad with a baseball bat, but it does sound interesting.
Given the (aparent) speed of a spell, I would assume that slamming doors etc would be fluff about the spell missing the target or being dodged. Or even a possible mis-cast. ie: the door 3 meters in front of you closes as you cast your fireball. oops |
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Jan 21 2004, 12:35 PM
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#10
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 345 Joined: 10-February 03 From: Leeds, UK Member No.: 4,046 |
This is covered by the "targeting via mirrors" and "targeting through transparent objects" debates - elemental manipulations can be (and are) blocked by anything between the caster and target. The effect is entirely on the physical plane and the resultant effect has to travel to the target. Closing a door is an entirely good way to deal with such spells, the door may not survive the fireball, but at least you will. |
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Jan 21 2004, 11:41 PM
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#11
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
right--but what if the door you close is a foot in front of the caster?
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Jan 22 2004, 12:23 AM
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#12
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 282 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 197 |
If I was feeling generous I might reason as follows: The ball is guided by thought, which explains why you use your sorcery skill for the ranged combat test. It's logical to assume the ball is also detonated by thought. Therefore, if its path were interrupted, it might simply fizzle out without recieving the mental command to detonate from the caster.
The other 364 days of the year, I'd be serving up roasted mage. |
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Jan 22 2004, 01:35 AM
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#13
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,362 Joined: 3-October 03 From: Poway, San Diego County, CA, USA Member No.: 5,676 |
Yes, you should be able to close a door with a held action. But if the door isn't made of carbon steel, the fireball will still blow it off the hinges, burning and crusing you. And if the mage is only a foot from the door, and you are close enough to close the door, and a fireball has a base radius of 6 meters, once again, do the math.
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Jan 22 2004, 02:17 AM
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#14
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 316 Joined: 18-July 03 Member No.: 4,963 |
You may want to look these things up first. Fireballs don't neccessairily blow the doors off of their hinges. In fact, a starting level mage certainly can't do that trick. For elemental manipulations, you use the normal barrier rating of an object for determining if it gets blown through. A regular door breaks open when its barrier rating has been reduced to 1/2 or less. For the sake of this, lets assume the doors most Shadowrunners are dealing with are equal to 'Average material'. What this means is that a relatively strong individual(Strength 4) can break it down in two, solid blows. A 6<blank> fireball would hit an 'average material' of 4...and reduce the barrier rating by 1, in addition to make a 1/2 meter hole. The door has not been 'broken down', it is merely damaged. You'd need an 8<blank> fireball to blown open an average door with one hit. |
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Jan 22 2004, 03:56 AM
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#15
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Can you tell me the difference between a 'starting level mage' and one with lots of experience, but not yet initiated, given that they both have 6s in Magic and Sorcery? According to some interpretations of canon, a 'starting level' mage can have a Force 8 Fireball spell. What 'level' does a mage have to be where his fireballs do blow doors off their hinges? |
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Jan 22 2004, 04:09 AM
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#16
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Senior GM Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,406 Joined: 12-April 03 From: Redmond, WA Member No.: 4,442 |
Fortune, please educate me. What rules can be interpreted to mean that a magician can start with a Force 8 spell?
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Jan 22 2004, 04:31 AM
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#17
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Force 6 with the Exclusive modifier. :)
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Jan 22 2004, 04:59 AM
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#18
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 608 Joined: 9-July 02 From: California Member No.: 2,955 |
Grandfather Bones did it!
(I named my Guinea Pig that) |
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Jan 22 2004, 05:34 AM
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#19
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 334 Joined: 17-November 03 From: Texas Member No.: 5,828 |
I don't think that Doctor Bones was supposed to be a starting character.
SR3, p.55 sums it up, for me and my players at least. |
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Jan 22 2004, 05:47 AM
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#20
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Which, if you notice, is why I wrote 'some interpretations' instead of simply stating that it was canon.
A case could be made about the fact that the character would only be putting 6 spell points into the spell. IIRC, there is also an example in SR3 of this very thing. |
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Jan 22 2004, 05:51 AM
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#21
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 316 Joined: 18-July 03 Member No.: 4,963 |
I don't care what their other skills are and have no intention of trying to codifying that. 'Starting level' in this context("starting level mage") means to me "A character whose magical skills and equipment are no greater than a character fresh out of creation according to standard creation rules".
-If you think
Means that the amount of Spell Points you spend buying a spell determines the Force(And, by extension, rating) a spell counts as for the purposes of all limitations on what new characters can have... Then yes, you can have a Force 8 spell fresh out of the gate. I don't ascribe to this interpretation on the grounds that is it still a Force 8 spell. Perhaps I should have added "One interpretation of the rules on the spells a new mage can possess allows a mage to blow up a door with one spell if he takes a Rating 8 spell as exclusive". Edit: Bastard Fortune. I spend too much time proof reading my posts. This post has been edited by Modesitt: Jan 22 2004, 05:53 AM |
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Jan 22 2004, 05:51 AM
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#22
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
doesn't have to be a door. could be anything--a thrown rock, a glass wall that's polished so clean as to be nearly invisible, a passing car, anything.
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Jan 22 2004, 04:53 PM
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#23
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,362 Joined: 3-October 03 From: Poway, San Diego County, CA, USA Member No.: 5,676 |
Actually, the SR3 cor rulebook specificly gives an example of a mage starting with a force 8 fireball spell. In the example, he takes the exclusive modifier to give it the drain of a force 6 spell. And, a starting mage could take a forc 8 spell without exclusive, it would just cause physical drain, which would be a really bad idea with an area of effect elemntal manipulation.
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Jan 22 2004, 05:12 PM
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#24
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Target Group: Members Posts: 47 Joined: 25-November 03 From: Somewhere in the back of your mind Member No.: 5,845 |
Surely you could just have a lvl 2 power focus (or have I got my rules muddled again
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Jan 22 2004, 05:18 PM
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#25
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 518 Joined: 24-February 03 From: Tucson Member No.: 4,153 |
They only way to effectively "block" a fireball spell would be to shield (absorb, reflect, etc.). Or, you have a freindly made in astral space with a held action enter into combat with the incoming spell and defeat/dispell it. |
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