Animal Forms, ...been reading (listening really) to M. Crichton's Next Options

[tisoz]

I've been listening to Michael Crichton's Next on audio CDs and started thinking about beneficial animal forms for use with the Shapechange spell. In the book, one of the tracks is about a genengineered parrot that seems intelligent.

Do you or your GM allow characters Shapechanged into parrots (or possibly ravens) to use speach? I have had GMs that didn't even want to let you fly without a skill check, so I was wondering how strict/lenient GMs were. I guess after the flight check debacle, I never even thought of trying to use a talking type bird to communicate while flying recon.

The book also got me thinking of other beneficial animal forms. Anyone want to share? Gorilla form for extra strength but still able to wear armor and use things needing an opposable thumb. Chimps, to a lesser extent. Snakes for getting through ductwork, small passageways, and having a venemous bite, or constricting attack?

Also, regarding the Shapechange/Transform spell - I've been giving some thoughts to reviving extinct species by Transforming an enemy into said extinct animal, like a passenger pigeon, or dodo. I realize it requires a male and female to get the line going again, but how long would the spell need be sustained? Until the eggs were laid? For live births - until the pregnancy ran its term? How long for the male in regards to a live birth - until conception? Or do you figure whatever tissue they gave up reverts when the spell sustaining is dropped?

[Angelone]

I'm pretty sure almost no gm would allow it stating the spell doesn't change your dna so you couldn't reproduce. If they would it most likely would have been done via shapechange and then cloning.

As for the flight and speech I can't see it not being allowed. It would be of limited use though depending on the environment and such. Parrots outside their natural habit would attract attention. Can ravens or crows talk?

Why not do the scouting and change back to relay the info?

[Tanegar]

The skill check for flying seems entirely reasonable to me. Birds aren't hatched knowing how to fly, they learn from their mother, and having the form doesn't give you the knowledge. I'd probably require a check to talk in bird form, too. The vocal mechanisms of parrots and ravens are very different from that of a human.

[Ancient History]

Man, that would be one big parrot.

[Tiger Eyes]

Birds aren't hatched knowing how to fly, they learn from their mother, and having the form doesn't give you the knowledge.

That's funny. I hatched a duckling as a kid and hand raised it. It sure knew how to fly a lot better than I did when it was grown. I didn't teach it to swim, either (I'm pretty sure it saw the way I swam as being hopelessly inept, although for a human I'm a pretty good swimmer). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Really, birds can learn how to fly even without a mama bird to teach them. It's instinct. A lot of zoos around the world hatch and raise chicks of endangered birds, then release them, and I'm betting none of the zoo keepers teach the bird how to fly.

Note that I'm saying it's instinct for a bird. I make no statements on humans wearing the form of a bird...

[Machiavelli]

I'm pretty sure almost no gm would allow it stating the spell doesn't change your dna so you couldn't reproduce. If they would it most likely would have been done via shapechange and then cloning.

As for the flight and speech I can't see it not being allowed. It would be of limited use though depending on the environment and such. Parrots outside their natural habit would attract attention. Can ravens or crows talk?

Why not do the scouting and change back to relay the info?

Like every other skill that exists, you can default on if you want to. Just because i lack the athletics group doesn´t mean i can´t walk/swim/climb/jump. I a just really bad at it. The flying skill is (like running) only used to increase the distance and maybe to make crash-tests if something bad happens. So, of course, you can fly, but you wouldn´t look good at it.

If ravens and crows can speak? Of course. They are probably one of the most intelligent birds and like an Beo capable of "imitating" speech. But that´s it. Up to GM´fiat if he allows it.

[GreyBrother]

Yeah, i ruled in my group that you actually need to learn flying before you can put those wings to use. My reasoning was that he never learned how to fly. Same reasoning "Yeah, birds do have the instinct, you are human." I wouldn't let him default to it like running, since it's an entirely different matter behind it. Everybody can run, but how many of you do think that just flapping your wings would make you fly?

So he used a gecko form as means of climbing up to the balcony and let a spirit carry his tools up to him.

[Machiavelli]

But he is physically capable of it, so he should be allowed to default on reaction or strenght or something. He might not know how to fly properly, but he knows how to raise his arms, so it is very difficult for him to prevent flying. Besides that, with a human consciousness and the physical ability to fly, it shouldn´t be more difficult for him than walking. So let him fly, but you are free to let him make landing tests ^^

[tisoz]

Why not do the scouting and change back to relay the info?

Dropping the spell is a possibility, but the need for the shpechange may be ongoing, so the spell would need to be cast again and Drain (which is hefty for the spell) resisted every time. There is also the possibility of wanting to relay information enroute. A microtransciever is small enough to be used by a parrot. Dropping the spell while flying to relay data would mean dropping from the sky or needing another means of remaining aloft like levitation or spirit help. There is also the small problem of nudity while changed back to human form, but not such a worry if in animal form while relaying information.

[tisoz]

If the character knows the spell already, as opposed to just learned it, I am going to assume they learned the spell with the intent of using it to change into some useful forms. If one of those forms main benefits is flight, I am also going to assume they tried it out a few times in the past and figured out how to fly.

I also had a GM make me do a skill roll to walk as a four legged creature, as humans are used to walking on only 2 legs. This really seemed like a BS ruling. IMO, I would assume the spellcaster tried out the spell a few times in the past and figured out the mechanics of locomotion, or whatever behavior natural and beneficial to that form, for various forms.

I can see requiring skill checks for Transformed characters, if it is the first time they have been transformed to that animal. Oddly, same GM never required skill check of NPCs to bite, claw, run away in said form. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) (Yeah, I think he was being a jerk concerning the spells.)

Even if the spell has been recently learned, if there has been some downtime, I am going to assume the spellcaster tried out the spell and some various forms and got used to using those forms. I can see some GMs requiring them to spend karma and learn each benefit of a form as a new skill. I would also think such a GM was being a jerk. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[GreyBrother]

*snip*

You have a point, i agree. But i think proper flying is a little bit more than just raising your arms and falling slowly. It was just that he never tried it as far as i know from his background (and he didn't told me anything otherwise) that i ruled it out. If he really tried it out (maybe with some help from an air spirit), then he'd learn the skill with rating 1 and the problem is solved.

[Neraph]

What about shapechanging into the lizards of old? Imagine the combat privelages of turning into a deinonychus, or a megaraptor. The defensive capabilities of a stegasaurus or ceratopsidae.

And if you say something like "But dinosaurs are no longer natural animals, because they're extinct" (that actually came up before), or (I'd believe this one more) "dinosaurs were actually partially awakened, so they do not fit the 'non-paranormal critter' criterion", then I'd say "fine. Just turn into a komodo dragon then."

Komodo dragons actually do have a poison, come to find out, that's effectively a blood thinner + stimulant, making the haert pump harder, causing the wound to bleed more, and eventually the creature dies from blood loss.

[Pendaric]

I would allow this kinda thing. Combat gorllia in armour and LMG no, limited speach parrot yes.
I would also freeform getting to know a new form, if the spell slinger had just aquired the spell or took a new animal may be impose tests for tension.
As always the aim is inventive and interesting roleplay but curtail behaviour or tactis that ruin the fun.

[tisoz]

Komodo dragons actually do have a poison, come to find out, that's effectively a blood thinner + stimulant, making the haert pump harder, causing the wound to bleed more, and eventually the creature dies from blood loss.

I thought I saw a nature show featuring them where it was said they have a really septic bite that causes infection that kills their prey. I guess this is not incompatible with blood thinners and stimulants, too.

[Mr. Mage]

I thought I saw a nature show featuring them where it was said they have a really septic bite that causes infection that kills their prey. I guess this is not incompatible with blood thinners and stimulants, too.

Yea...I'm pretty sure it's just a really bacteria ridden mouth. According to zoos/nature shows/encyclopedias that have seen/read.


Another thing to remember about shapechange is that, unless I read it wrong, you can only change into a creature that has a Strength and Body of no more than 2 higher or lower than yours. I don't know about you, but that actually restricts me to Dogs and Wolves (according to the SR4 core book at least) so I just ended up taking Dog Form instead of shapechange, less of a Drain.

Also, is their a Critter Compendium of some sort for SR4? I haven't actually seen any stats for any besides the 5 or 6 in the core book, though I haven't looked extensively through the other books yet. I'm just curious because I was actually thinking being able to turn into a bird of some sort would be beneficial, especially for scouting like mentioned earlier.

[Cheops]

Would people allow an Octopus "dual wielding" 8 baseball bats? also what sort of stats would there be on an octopus?

Makes for a pretty brutal build I've been thinking of. Put levitate on it and invest in a lot of swimming skill or whatever is needed to increase length of time before running out of breath and it gets pretty sick. Especially if you do it with a Mystic Adept. Attribute Boost and Increased Ability FTW!

PS. Don't forget that if needs be you can always use Increase or Decrease Body to "fit" those other forms. Had an Ork once that cast decrease body on himself so he could fit into sparrows and bugs and I've seen a human boost his body to fit into stuff like rhinos and bears.

[Mr. Mage]

Would people allow an Octopus "dual wielding" 8 baseball bats? also what sort of stats would there be on an octopus?

Makes for a pretty brutal build I've been thinking of. Put levitate on it and invest in a lot of swimming skill or whatever is needed to increase length of time before running out of breath and it gets pretty sick. Especially if you do it with a Mystic Adept. Attribute Boost and Increased Ability FTW!

PS. Don't forget that if needs be you can always use Increase or Decrease Body to "fit" those other forms. Had an Ork once that cast decrease body on himself so he could fit into sparrows and bugs and I've seen a human boost his body to fit into stuff like rhinos and bears.

The octopus idea is up to your GM, but keep in mind that for dual wielding, you have to split your dice pool. SO when using 8 baseball bats, you'd probably have to split the dicepool 8 ways...not to mention that you would still have only one dominant "hand/tentacle"(without Ambidex at least) and I think you end up taking more penalties as the attacks increase....not so brutal of a build now is it?

[Cheops]

Edit: My math was faulty. Thought that off-hand was -1 dice not -2 dice (messed up with defaulting). You'd need 24 dice in clubs to get 1 die with each off hand. Needs more investigating to see if this is viable anymore. Would be funny to get it working with Finishing Move.

[Machiavelli]

Yeah, you could call it "the tentacler".^^

[Mirilion]

Edit: My math was faulty. Thought that off-hand was -1 dice not -2 dice (messed up with defaulting). You'd need 24 dice in clubs to get 1 die with each off hand. Needs more investigating to see if this is viable anymore. Would be funny to get it working with Finishing Move.

Hehehe, just got some funny visuals there.
Also, I would consider allowing simple flight using agility -1 for relevant tests, since it's fun.

[Generico]

Personalized Grip is +1 die for melee.
Mods are post pool split.

So dice pool 14-15 (can you use 0 dice for the first bat?) for 1 die per weapon.

[Cheops]

Hmmm...mods are post split you say? Also, would finishing move be 1 attack at full DP? If we aim for 16 DP to attack that means we get 8 attacks at 1 die to give a final modifier of -9 to defense. Unless you are fighting a big bad you are going to hit towards the end there (although you'll drop a lot of bats!) and then you get a 16 die attack at -10 to their defense! Ouch.

[Mr. Mage]

ugh...Ican't seem to shake this picture in my head of an octopus wearing a lether jacket and a green mohawk, nailing people on the head with 8 baseball bats. Next, we're going to figure out if trandforming into a bird allows you to use pistols for when you do an airstrike...hehe

[Cheops]

don't be silly...that sort of stuff is reserved for the WotC boards where they do spend 4 pages arguing about whether gorillas can use a bow and arrows. We're all smarter and know that sparrows can't use pistols. Although we do know that apes can use guns... "Damn dirty apes!"

Ugh, just had a picture of an angry Silverback rampaging through Seattle dual wielding maces. Or Frying Pans (who needs that extra +3 damage anyway -- I'm a frickking gorilla!)

[Mirilion]

don't be silly...that sort of stuff is reserved for the WotC boards where they do spend 4 pages arguing about whether gorillas can use a bow and arrows. We're all smarter and know that sparrows can't use pistols. Although we do know that apes can use guns... "Damn dirty apes!"

Ugh, just had a picture of an angry Silverback rampaging through Seattle dual wielding maces. Or Frying Pans (who needs that extra +3 damage anyway -- I'm a frickking gorilla!)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

A silverback with cyberware and a mohawk ? or just a normal silverback ?