Cyber-Blades vs Bone Lacing/Density, does the latter preclude the former? Options

[IceKatze]

hi hi

I have been doing cyberware work on street samurai type characters and the rules on Hand Razors/Cyber Spurs and Bone Lacing/Bone Density have given me no end of headache.

My question is: since Bone Lacing and Bone Density have comparable damage codes to Hand Razors, Hand Blades and Cyber Spurs, if a character has Bone Lacing or Bone Density, is there any point to getting cyber-melee weapons? The rule of cool demands that these characters have cyber-melee weapons because they are thematically awesome, but mechanically speaking I can't find a justifiable benefit. I can't even claim concealability because bone density isn't even restricted. Cyber-implant weapons can't benefit from a custom grip, but there has got to be some reason to pick them up.

[Naysayer]

No. There isn't. It's a shame that there isn't, but there still isn't.
The "benefit" of spurs is that they are blades that protude from your hands so you can stab people. I mean, how cool is that, right? Spurs rock thematically, but mechanically, they have basically been obsolete ever since the introduction of Bone Lacing in the SR1 Shadowtech.
Razors, however, have alway sucked. For the price of several useful items, you get the damage of a fucking knife, and are forced to motherfucking catfight people to death.

A "useful" cyber-melee weapon would be the shock hand. Electrocuting people up close and personal without having to pick up the awful clubs skill and a glorified cattle prod is a good thing.

On the other hand, I am firmly in the camp of people who think that your street samurai better have a very good reason why he did not, at some point in his life, have at least one set of blades implanted into his body.

PS: Blades cut people. So, if you plan on employing some convoluted plan where you need your opponent to get cut, then get away and die from blood-poisoning, or contract rabies or something, then cyberblades are a must.

[McAllister]

An adept who's willing to suck up a point of essence loss can make his cyberspurs a weapon focus.

That's.... about all I got.

[Stahlseele]

Weapon Reservoir and coat them with something nasty.
Never be without a pocket knife either. Open cans, cut wires.
All the good stuff you can use a knife for. Cleaning nails.

[Cadmus]

The problem with spurs is, in a street fight...I keep seeing one sam pull out the spurs and the other back off and with the accent, saying, Thats not a knife...this is a knife. and whip out the couger fine blade or something,

Granted for my sams they would say that and then shoot the dude with a knife...but i'm a gun bunny and rigger at heart (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Stahlseele]

That's probably just me, but i see an Ancient put our their Spur against a Troll and the Troll sayins:"Only an elf would be dumb enbough to bring a Spur to a Gunfight!"
In SR3, Cyber-Blades were viable choice with Dikote and Using the SR3 Companion Rules for 2-Handed Combat.

[ElFenrir]

Well, IMO, they aren't that bad.

Bone Density 4/Titanium Bone Lacing are Str/2+3.
Spurs are Str/2+3.

Both can get +3 DV to their damage codes from blades/unarmed martial arts.

The only difference is Adepts-they can get critical strike, but...they can also get a weapon focus, which while it's not as easy, the focus ends up with more dice, the critical strike more damage.

Spurs vs. Lacing, IMO, is fairly a wash.

Now, the LOWER levels of cyberblades, yeah. It seems to be spur or nothing. (I miss the old Handblades from SR3. They could be nasty.)

[The Jake]

Cyberglands are a pretty strong incentive, making razors or spurs a fantastic delivery system.

Then there is the whole weapon focii angle.

Apart from that, I got nothing.

- J.

[HappyDaze]

IIRC, spurs are a much less expensive choice and thus are good for gangers and wanna-b's.

[Stahlseele]

Now, the LOWER levels of cyberblades, yeah. It seems to be spur or nothing. (I miss the old Handblades from SR3. They could be nasty.)

Only because they got a +3 to power niveau. so you were more or less guaranteed to at least deal a light wound. if you hit.
They became really mean with Dikote and SR3 Companion Dual-Fighting.
STR+4M for one of those things. Then add Half Strength Again. One Troll.
16 STR. 20M Damage with one of those. 28M with two of those. And THEN come Successes. And then comes the inevitable GammaScopolamine with 10D Stun ^^

[Machiavelli]

And please don´t forget one important point: you can´t get titanium bone lacing from the start and you need the maximum rating of bone density to get the same benefits that spurs provide. Both are a lot of money and cost even more essence. Bone lacing is illegal and heavy. So if you are not capable to purchase the highest ratings, spurs are still a cheap, relatively essence-friedly way to get maximum damage and outmatch the rest.

[The Jake]

And please don´t forget one important point: you can´t get titanium bone lacing from the start and you need the maximum rating of bone density to get the same benefits that spurs provide. Both are a lot of money and cost even more essence. Bone lacing is illegal and heavy. So if you are not capable to purchase the highest ratings, spurs are still a cheap, relatively essence-friedly way to get maximum damage and outmatch the rest.

Incorrect. Titanium Bone Lacing can be bought if you take the Restricted Gear 5pt Positive Quality as well as pay the nuyen cost.

- J.

[Machiavelli]

Ok, lets say "usually can´t be bought"

[ShadowPavement]

I know it's been erata'd but I let spurs keep their +1 reach from the original printing. I feel that makes them unique enough to stand up against bonelacing.

[Machiavelli]

Yeah, that would change everything. For me, i like them just for the style. It needs no logical explanation^^

[Stahlseele]

I know it's been erata'd but I let spurs keep their +1 reach from the original printing. I feel that makes them unique enough to stand up against bonelacing.

Have you seen the Wolverine Origins Movie?
Deadpool at the End? His Arm-Swords?
That's the only way Spurs could get 1 Rech.

[paws2sky]

What works better against a rope? A blade or a karate chop?

Implant weapons takes capacity in cyberlimbs, making them modestly more essence friendly in some builds.

Bone lacing is less Essence friendly, but provides other benefits.

You can't slash a Z into your enemy's clothing with bone lacing.

-paws

[cREbralFIX]

hi hi

I have been doing cyberware work on street samurai type characters and the rules on Hand Razors/Cyber Spurs and Bone Lacing/Bone Density have given me no end of headache.

My question is: since Bone Lacing and Bone Density have comparable damage codes to Hand Razors, Hand Blades and Cyber Spurs, if a character has Bone Lacing or Bone Density, is there any point to getting cyber-melee weapons? The rule of cool demands that these characters have cyber-melee weapons because they are thematically awesome, but mechanically speaking I can't find a justifiable benefit. I can't even claim concealability because bone density isn't even restricted. Cyber-implant weapons can't benefit from a custom grip, but there has got to be some reason to pick them up.

From a ROLEPLAYING perspective, bone-lacing is a wonderful thing for martial artists. How do I know? A training friend has STEEL in his forearm. It's exceptionally effective when blocking and passing through a weapon. I've had that steel part of his arm smack into the bone of my forearm, and I have to tell you...besides the numbing effects...it took all my willpower not to drop the training knife. If my arms had not been conditioned, I would have definitely dropped it.

[Stahlseele]

What works better against a rope? A blade or a karate chop?

Handblade IS a Karate-Chop ^^
Other question i would ask:
Do those Cyber-Implant-Weapons help with climbing?
Anyone else remember the old X-Men animated Series where wolverine used his claws to scale beton walls and the such? No? Am i that old? <.<

[Zaranthan]

Incorrect. Titanium Bone Lacing can be bought if you take the Restricted Gear 5pt Positive Quality as well as pay the nuyen cost.

- J.

That just makes spurs even cheaper.

[Zen Shooter01]

Spurs are cheaper in nuyen and Essence, making them easier to combine with other implants, and unlike titanium bone lacing, can be had at chargen without the Restricted Gear quality.

For example, you can have two sets of spurs and Dermal Sheathing 2, doing (Str/2)+3 damage and getting +2/3 armor, and pay 1.6 Essence and 23,600 nuyen. You have the option of customizing the look of your dermal sheath, and have the option of fighting with a weapon in each hand; you have the extra intimidation factor of blades, and you have the ability to cut. You have the option of delivering toxins with the spurs, either by adding a reservoir gland or just by painting the spurs with the toxin, if my memory serves.

With titanium bone lacing, you'll get +3 Body, and +1/1 armor. With the lower armor rating, you'll be converting damage to stun less often, although that's partially mitigated by the extra body dice. You do (Str/2)+3, but you'll pay 1.5 Essence, and 40,000 nuyen, not to mention another 5 bp at chargen for the Restricted Gear quality. You will not have the ability to cut.

So there are reasons to take spurs over bone lacing.

[Stahlseele]

Spurs can be removed on the fly.
Switch out Spurs made of Metal for ones made of Ceramics.

[paws2sky]

Handblade IS a Karate-Chop ^^

lol. Yes, but its the BLADE that makes the karate-chop effective! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

Do those Cyber-Implant-Weapons help with climbing?

I'd consider hand razors worthy of eliminating 1 or 2 dice of penalties for trying to scale surfaces.

Anyone else remember the old X-Men animated Series where wolverine used his claws to scale beton walls and the such? No? Am i that old? <.<

Oh yeah. That's an old trick of his. He's been doing that for... god, I don't know how long.

-paws

[Stahlseele]

Yeah, we're old ._.
Would you allow this for Nail-Knifes too?
Where would you draw the line?
When do the Blades just cut through whatever you are trying to scale?

[Zaranthan]

For example, you can have two sets of spurs and Dermal Sheathing 2, doing (Str/2)+3 damage and getting +2/3 armor, and pay 1.6 Essence and 23,600 nuyen. You have the option of customizing the look of your dermal sheath, and have the option of fighting with a weapon in each hand; you have the extra intimidation factor of blades, and you have the ability to cut. You have the option of delivering toxins with the spurs, either by adding a reservoir gland or just by painting the spurs with the toxin, if my memory serves.

So there are reasons to take spurs over bone lacing.

You forgot the most important advantage: you look like freaking WOLVERINE!