IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

2 Pages V   1 2 >  
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> Cosmetic Modifications and 'Ware, WTF?
HappyDaze
post Jun 30 2009, 11:13 PM
Post #1


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,838
Joined: 1-September 05
Member No.: 7,669



The subject of cosmetic modifications came up in last night's game when our resident street sam needed to get a new face to help shake off an emerging Wanted quality. He knew a top-notch street doc, so it was all good in concept. Then we flipped through the books...

I had read Biosculpting (Moderate Modification) and seen that it could be used to recreate the face or even alter apparent ethnicity. This seemed perfect even though it had an Essence Cost of 0.1. However, the player had noted that the main book had a cyberware version called Cosmetic Modification that cost no Essence and seemed to be capable of doing the same thing.

Here's the relevant text of the Cosmetic Modification bodyware: Cosmetic Modification: Outpatient treatments that take about 2 hours can be obtained to alter the user’s appearance—shape, coloration, and pigmentation of the face and body along with addition or removal of hair (fiberoptic hair with changing color patterns is still very popular). Exotic modifications like scaly skin, colorful fur, cat ears, ork tusks, or tails are more difficult to come by.

Seems pretty clear - until we look at Augmentation. Augmentation pulls out several of the included mods and places seperate costs on them. Suddenly the fiberoptic hair and fangs (ork tusks) both have an Essence Cost of 0.1. In fact all cosmetic cybernetic implants have an Essence Cost. Only cosmetic cyberware modifications - defined as such, "Cosmetic cyberware modifications include anything that alters the appearance, shape, or color of another piece of cyberware and does not affect the Essence Cost or Capacity of the modified implant." - have no Essence Cost.

The shift in Augmentation leads me to believe that the BBB version of Cosmetic Modification is outdated and should have been removed since it appears at odds with Augmentation, but the text I showed above came straight from SR4A. I'll say straight-away that I don't like Cosmetic Modification - I don't think that cyberware should be better for this than a bioware procedure and less costly on Essence.

I'm thining of asking the player to retcon slightly and take both Biosculpting (Moderate Modification) for the look of a new ethnicity along with Cyberlimb Casemods to alter the look of his cyberhands and a new set of stylized Protective Covers over his cybereyes - as the latter bits seem to follow the Augmentation-implied use of cosmetic cyberware.

Anyone else have any insight into how you'd handle these issues?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ravor
post Jul 1 2009, 12:12 AM
Post #2


Cybernetic Blood Mage
******

Group: Members
Posts: 3,472
Joined: 11-March 06
From: Northeastern Wyoming
Member No.: 8,361



Personally I refuse to charge Essence for cosmetics, even truely outlandish things like feathers or scales.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
IceKatze
post Jul 1 2009, 12:24 AM
Post #3


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 325
Joined: 18-January 09
From: Middle of Nowhere
Member No.: 16,788



hi hi

I have a two point check on whether or not a cyberware/bioware mod requires essence.

1. Does it use DNI or an activation trigger?

2. Does it confer a stat bonus?

If the answer is no, then I think a ¥ cost is enough.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Summerstorm
post Jul 1 2009, 12:35 AM
Post #4


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,000
Joined: 30-May 09
From: Germany
Member No.: 17,225



I think nearly all modifications should use up essence. Essence was once described not only as "holistic unity" of your body but also as beeing natural the one you are supposed to be, and even part "feeling as yourself".

Your DNA and magical blueprint never intented for you to have glowing hair, huge tusks (as a human) or green skin. That should take essence. And we are not in a computer game, where you only are after optimization of skills and powers, people should and will take these things if they like it, even if they costs 0.1 or 0.2 essence.

I would go so far and let exessive "normal" modifacations drain essence (Like full-body tattoos, silicon implants, or a face full of piercings), but not much of course.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
HappyDaze
post Jul 1 2009, 01:33 AM
Post #5


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,838
Joined: 1-September 05
Member No.: 7,669



Quick note to keep the idea of the Biosculpting (Moderate Modification) having an Essence Cost in perspective: Once you've had it done once, you can use the Essence 'hole' removing it offers to get new 'sculps whenever you can pay for them. This week you look like a white man, next month you're a black man, and for that run in Neo-Tokyo you can get a Japanese-look without ever again paying Essence. In this case, that 0.1 Essence you've paid isn't really too bad of a deal.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
McAllister
post Jul 1 2009, 01:46 AM
Post #6


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 509
Joined: 16-June 09
Member No.: 17,282



Here's the question I'd ask; is there present-day technology that can cost people Essence? Because celebrity-watchers certainly seem to think facelifts, nips, tucks and the like impugn on "holistic unity" of peoples' bodies. Shit, the late Michael Jackson's skin-bleaching and nose-raping nonsense was definitely a violation of "holistic unity" at some point. Did it cost him essence? I think a nose job doesn't cost Essence, but something as intense as MJ's makeover would be.

Here's my advice for integrating the above guideline with the BBB's "Cosmetic Modification" and Augmentations "Biosculpting." Anything that would be reasonable to-day (hair plugs, facelifts, nose jobs, mainstream cosmetic surgery) counts as "Cosmetic Modification," but anything that would be difficult-impossible to-day (implanting tusks, cat ears, face transplants etc.) are "difficult to come by," and thus have an Essence cost.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Resplendent Fire
post Jul 1 2009, 05:53 AM
Post #7


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 17
Joined: 1-July 09
Member No.: 17,342



QUOTE (IceKatze @ Jun 30 2009, 05:24 PM) *
hi hi

I have a two point check on whether or not a cyberware/bioware mod requires essence.

1. Does it use DNI or an activation trigger?

2. Does it confer a stat bonus?

If the answer is no, then I think a ¥ cost is enough.


I registered specifically to agree with this comment.

Essence costs for cosmetic changes seem over the top.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
pbangarth
post Jul 1 2009, 06:06 AM
Post #8


Old Man of the North
**********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 9,576
Joined: 14-August 03
From: Just north of the Centre of the Universe
Member No.: 5,463



QUOTE (Resplendent Fire @ Jun 30 2009, 10:53 PM) *
I registered specifically to agree with this comment.


You picked an interesting name.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Resplendent Fire
post Jul 1 2009, 06:14 AM
Post #9


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 17
Joined: 1-July 09
Member No.: 17,342



QUOTE (pbangarth @ Jun 30 2009, 11:06 PM) *
You picked an interesting name.


It's the hottest month in the Exalted year. I was kind of at a loss for a name on the WW forum, and picked this one randomly.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
McAllister
post Jul 1 2009, 06:22 AM
Post #10


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 509
Joined: 16-June 09
Member No.: 17,282



It sure works better than "IAgreeWithIceKatzeAboutCosmeticChanges89."

Anyway, welcome to Dumpshock. May the force be with you.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
HappyDaze
post Jul 1 2009, 03:12 PM
Post #11


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,838
Joined: 1-September 05
Member No.: 7,669



QUOTE
Essence costs for cosmetic changes seem over the top.


Why? Cosmetic changes can be very useful (especially if you play up prejudices and use the Reputation rules), and they can certainly have other costs (nuyen and BP/Karma). In this case, the cosmetic changes are a part of a character avoiding a 10 BP negative quality (Wanted) being applied for in-game actions. I think that this is worth a few thousand nuyen and 0.1 Essence - especially since I'm willing to allow future Biosculpting to take advantage of the 'Essence Hole' that results from overwriting the current look, making it a one-time Essence investment (nuyen still gets paid each time - sorry) for something that can be useful time and again for a runner.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Jaid
post Jul 1 2009, 09:01 PM
Post #12


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 7,089
Joined: 4-October 05
Member No.: 7,813



buying off a negative quality isn't the only thing cosmetic changes can be used for. it really sucks for a technomancer or magician who doesn't intend to get any 'ware, if they want to get simple cosmetic changes for their character and they can't without losing a full point of magic or resonance. i can certainly understand for major cosmetic changes, but if you can attach a cloned arm onto a body without changing it's identity, then i fail to see why really minor changes should suddenly cost essence. sure, if you're going in for a major operation like a sex-change (probably complete with working sexual organs, this is 2070) then you might be in for essence cost. getting a tattoo, or grafting in different hair, on the other hand, seems rather minor. i am of the opinion that if someone wants fiberoptic hair that changes color constantly, there's no need to punish them with essence loss.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
knasser
post Jul 1 2009, 09:18 PM
Post #13


Shadow Cartographer
*******

Group: Members
Posts: 3,737
Joined: 2-June 06
From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West)
Member No.: 8,636



I'll charge the Essence cost, but as far as I'm concerned, getting further modifications is effectively taking out the old stuff and filling the Essence hole with the new. So you'll lose a little at the start, but have as many re-sculpts as you like.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
KCKitsune
post Jul 1 2009, 10:08 PM
Post #14


Neophyte Runner
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 2,188
Joined: 9-February 08
From: Boiling Springs
Member No.: 15,665



QUOTE (Summerstorm @ Jun 30 2009, 08:35 PM) *
I would go so far and let exessive "normal" modifacations drain essence (Like full-body tattoos, silicon implants, or a face full of piercings), but not much of course.


OH. MY. GOD! You would charge Essence for a full Body Tat? I would hate to play in your games. Tattoos are not Essence draining. So you're saying that you would make a veteran Yakuza mage pay for his status in the gang with Essence... that's sorta petty.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
the_real_elwood
post Jul 1 2009, 10:31 PM
Post #15


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 483
Joined: 16-September 08
From: Madison, WI
Member No.: 16,349



QUOTE (HappyDaze @ Jul 1 2009, 09:12 AM) *
Why? Cosmetic changes can be very useful (especially if you play up prejudices and use the Reputation rules), and they can certainly have other costs (nuyen and BP/Karma). In this case, the cosmetic changes are a part of a character avoiding a 10 BP negative quality (Wanted) being applied for in-game actions. I think that this is worth a few thousand nuyen and 0.1 Essence - especially since I'm willing to allow future Biosculpting to take advantage of the 'Essence Hole' that results from overwriting the current look, making it a one-time Essence investment (nuyen still gets paid each time - sorry) for something that can be useful time and again for a runner.


If you're using the cosmetic changes to weasel out of having to play your metatype, or to get around a negative quality you purchased, then the cosmetic change is giving you a numerical bonus (however roundabout it may be), and then you should be charged a commensurate amount of essence. But if you're talking something like fiber optic hair, changing skin color, or breast implants on a woman, then charging essence for something like that is ridiculous. Just charging nuyen is plenty of cost to the player for allowing them to have a character that fits the idea in their head.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
HappyDaze
post Jul 1 2009, 10:54 PM
Post #16


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,838
Joined: 1-September 05
Member No.: 7,669



QUOTE
it really sucks for a technomancer or magician who doesn't intend to get any 'ware, if they want to get simple cosmetic changes for their character and they can't without losing a full point of magic or resonance.

Biosculpting (Minor Modification) handles many of the commonly thought of 'minor cosmetic changes' - and it cost 0 Essence. This character is getting Biosculpting (Moderate Modification) to change his apparent ethnicity which also happens to involve altering the bone structure of his face (giving some protection against facial recognition techniques). That's why it'll cost 0.1 Essence.

QUOTE
I'll charge the Essence cost, but as far as I'm concerned, getting further modifications is effectively taking out the old stuff and filling the Essence hole with the new. So you'll lose a little at the start, but have as many re-sculpts as you like.

This is my view as well.

QUOTE
If you're using the cosmetic changes to weasel out of having to play your metatype, or to get around a negative quality you purchased, then the cosmetic change is giving you a numerical bonus (however roundabout it may be), and then you should be charged a commensurate amount of essence.

I think your term 'weasel out of' sounds pretty negative, and I'd note that it's not a quality he purchased - it's one resulting from in-game actions. Getting a new face for this character is IMO, better roleplaying and less 'weasel-ly' than simply expecting a new hat to hide his ID.

QUOTE
Just charging nuyen is plenty of cost to the player for allowing them to have a character that fits the idea in their head.

Basic cyberlimbs are often little more than cosmetic in effect, yet they certainly cost Essence. They can certainly be made more useful, but so too can a new look if you're emphasis is in the roleplaying.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
IceKatze
post Jul 1 2009, 11:00 PM
Post #17


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 325
Joined: 18-January 09
From: Middle of Nowhere
Member No.: 16,788



hi hi

I suppose my motivation is to promote creativity in role-playing, rather then being a hard core simulation, which I will admit is a personal preference. I would hate to have a player come to game all excited about this cool idea he had that would help flesh out his character only to say, "you can do that as long as you're willing to give up an adept power or four."
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
HappyDaze
post Jul 1 2009, 11:04 PM
Post #18


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,838
Joined: 1-September 05
Member No.: 7,669



QUOTE
I suppose my motivation is to promote creativity in role-playing, rather then being a hard core simulation, which I will admit is a personal preference. I would hate to have a player come to game all excited about this cool idea he had that would help flesh out his character only to say, "you can do that as long as you're willing to give up an adept power or four."

In the case of the adept, you have the option of doing this (and more) with the Facial Sculpt and Melanin Control powers. But even so, doing what he's doing would cost a few adept powers.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
IceKatze
post Jul 1 2009, 11:58 PM
Post #19


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 325
Joined: 18-January 09
From: Middle of Nowhere
Member No.: 16,788



hi hi

Using adept powers for an adept to solve the problem is still a munchy way of looking at what is sometimes an entirely fluffy problem.

Does getting a really big sliver, or a fragment of shrapnel stuck under the skin cause essence loss?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Summerstorm
post Jul 2 2009, 12:14 AM
Post #20


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,000
Joined: 30-May 09
From: Germany
Member No.: 17,225



QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Jul 1 2009, 11:08 PM) *
OH. MY. GOD! You would charge Essence for a full Body Tat? I would hate to play in your games. Tattoos are not Essence draining. So you're saying that you would make a veteran Yakuza mage pay for his status in the gang with Essence... that's sorta petty.


Naa, that is not extensive enough. And the impact on his soul is maybe even beneficial (As he is with soul and skin part of the group)

I meant something like this:

http://www.spokane7.com/images/2007/jul/11/enigma.jpg

It is just this "will" to be a freak.. be something other than a human that would take essence. (Also maybe the slight poisoning of your skin, and slight allergies and such).

Also: When i played a hermetic magician, which was an... "operative" i never had 6.0 Essence. It is just too tempting to built in just a tiny-itsy-bitsy bit. *g* A cerebral booster, a bit bioware against the drain, of course a Datajack, or maybe cyber-eyes... its not unusual. My shamans were more likely to be a bit capricious about those thing... but not all. So when people want to look different and get operated on, they are not themselves. Maybe even by just a tiny bit. Maybe only on the farthest reaches on the outside of their body, but they are not like they should be.

That means -0.05.. or -0.1. It's not that bad, just lose the one point magic.. hell, use up the 0.9 more. and try to save karma for an initiation *g*. If you choose to be powerful and clean... well too bad, you don't get to be an asian dude tomorrow and a elven woman next week. That is the price to pay for beeing awesome with magic. (No Freebies)

See ya
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Resplendent Fire
post Jul 2 2009, 12:16 AM
Post #21


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 17
Joined: 1-July 09
Member No.: 17,342



QUOTE (Jaid @ Jul 1 2009, 02:01 PM) *
buying off a negative quality isn't the only thing cosmetic changes can be used for. it really sucks for a technomancer or magician who doesn't intend to get any 'ware, if they want to get simple cosmetic changes for their character and they can't without losing a full point of magic or resonance. i can certainly understand for major cosmetic changes, but if you can attach a cloned arm onto a body without changing it's identity, then i fail to see why really minor changes should suddenly cost essence. sure, if you're going in for a major operation like a sex-change (probably complete with working sexual organs, this is 2070) then you might be in for essence cost. getting a tattoo, or grafting in different hair, on the other hand, seems rather minor. i am of the opinion that if someone wants fiberoptic hair that changes color constantly, there's no need to punish them with essence loss.


I actually don't think a sex change should cost essence, either. I don't see the justification for that. Summerstorm said:

QUOTE (Summerstorm @ Jun 30 2009, 05:35 PM) *
I think nearly all modifications should use up essence. Essence was once described not only as "holistic unity" of your body but also as beeing natural the one you are supposed to be, and even part "feeling as yourself".


which is how transsexual people describe the experience - the hormonal therapy and the surgery.

So now, being naturally the one you are supposed to be, and "feeling as yourself" costs essence?

QUOTE (HappyDaze @ Jul 1 2009, 04:04 PM) *
In the case of the adept, you have the option of doing this (and more) with the Facial Sculpt and Melanin Control powers. But even so, doing what he's doing would cost a few adept powers.


Facial Sculpt and Melanin Control have durations, don't they?

While I can understand wanting to charge essence to eliminate a drawback, I think that this is a really metagamey way to look at things. That the character is Wanted and uses biosculpting to eliminate that Wanted isn't really a good enough reason for cosmetic surgery to cost essence. You can already pay karma to remove negative qualities, provided you take steps to eliminate it.

Cyberlimbs are still cybernetics - electronic, mechanical additions to your body, while cosmetic surgery is still, largely the alteration of existing bone and tissue (or the addition of tissue which is, in all likelihood, cloned or otherwise grown from your DNA). They're not comparable.

I don't like the notion because it seems to place cosmetic surgery into a category where it doesn't belong. That it makes it out to be unnatural and inhuman in the same way that cybernetics are, when most of the alterations that cost essence are simply an alteration of a metahuman body without adding anything to it. Cosmetic surgery really is a matter of (in many cases) inflicting a controlled set of injuries on someone and then manipulating how those injuries heal. Some surgery does involve inert implants, and of course alterations can give you a disguise bonus (at the cost of not being able to take it off without surgery).

The essence cost for cosmetic modifications is entirely too steep, especially for magicians and adepts.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ravor
post Jul 2 2009, 12:23 AM
Post #22


Cybernetic Blood Mage
******

Group: Members
Posts: 3,472
Joined: 11-March 06
From: Northeastern Wyoming
Member No.: 8,361



When people start talking about "pure" Mages and Adepts I start wanting to change sides and charge Essence for earrings, smoking, and even drinking soycaf, EVERYONE even Mages/Shamans should already have at least one point of their majo burnt.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
the_real_elwood
post Jul 2 2009, 01:05 AM
Post #23


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 483
Joined: 16-September 08
From: Madison, WI
Member No.: 16,349



I still think that the general guideline that if it gives you any sort of stat bonus (or offsets any negative stat), then you charge essence for it. If I just want my character to have a certain look (extensive tats, piercings, hair, or stuff like that), then pay the nuyen and have fun. And if you wanted a couple of things that conferred a minor stat bonus, I'd let a player roll it all up together and let them have it for something like 0.1 essence.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Jaid
post Jul 2 2009, 01:22 AM
Post #24


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 7,089
Joined: 4-October 05
Member No.: 7,813



QUOTE (Resplendent Fire @ Jul 1 2009, 07:16 PM) *
I actually don't think a sex change should cost essence, either. I don't see the justification for that. Summerstorm said:

[stuff that didn't get pulled along with the quote]

which is how transsexual people describe the experience - the hormonal therapy and the surgery.

from a shadowrun viewpoint, your self-image is how you were born. if that means that someone was born internally conflicted over a feeling they should have been born a different gender, apparently that's part of their image...

otherwise someone can decide that they should have been born with an implanted cyberlimb, or that they should have been born smarter, and therefore the cyberhand (with nanohive etc) and their cerebral boosters shouldn't count into essence cost...

after all, who's going to tell the technomancer that it's absurd to think their body should have been a machine in the first place?

that said, if it was just an external change, i'd be inclined to agree that the cosmetics are probably not enough to justify essence loss.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Resplendent Fire
post Jul 2 2009, 01:28 AM
Post #25


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 17
Joined: 1-July 09
Member No.: 17,342



QUOTE (Ravor @ Jul 1 2009, 05:23 PM) *
When people start talking about "pure" Mages and Adepts I start wanting to change sides and charge Essence for earrings, smoking, and even drinking soycaf, EVERYONE even Mages/Shamans should already have at least one point of their majo burnt.


I'm not talking about pure mages. My last (and really, only) Shadowrun character was a full mage with ~2 essence worth of cyber and bioware. I've also played an adept who had a smart link and some other implants. I don't see anything wrong with Awakened characters with cyberware, but I feel that the essence cost for cosmetic surgery is over the top.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

2 Pages V   1 2 >
Reply to this topicStart new topic

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 29th March 2024 - 07:21 AM

Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.