Question about the system( i need your help ), duh! Options

[daves456]

Hello, i am a new player in SR4 an i need to clarify some rules about SR4

1- p.264 - improving skills and skills groups : << To learn or improve a new active skill or skill group, the character must succeed in an extended intuition + skill* test >>

* what skill are they talking about ?

2- About technomancers tests : while in VR, you get a + 2 on all matrix test (p.223) , does it affect :

a- the fading tests
b- the threading tests
c- the biofeedback filter tests ( normally charisma + willpower for technomancers)
d- the dumbshock ressistance tests.
e- defense and ressistance in matrix combats.
f- any echoes that use ressonance as dice modifier

3- When you hack on the fly, you make a exploit+hacking test, (firewall, 1 ip ) and the defending node make a analyse+firewall(stealth). Is that stealth theshold is only your stealth rating or is it hacking+stealth like in normal matrix rules for perception and hiding.

4- Can black hammer overflow in physical when attacking a cold sim user.

5- Can a technomancer can route his wireless signals throught a commlink. ( e.i. Lewis, a technomancer is trapped in a room protected whit a faraday cage, but there a phone in the room. So he plug his commlink in the phone, and then he connect his mind to his commlink.

6- Someone is blocked online by a black ic, and fail his tests to jack out, if the wire that connect him to the matrix is physically cut, will he be disconnected and escape the black IC. If yes, can a technomancer can decide to cut himself from the matrix in such situation.

7- If a technomancer has his stun filled by a Black IC, does his personna crash?

8- Is the system rating of a technomancer is limited by his response like others nodes, are the complex forms limited by the system rating.

9- How does the defrag echo work (unwired) . Must i note witch damages are made to the living personna and witch are not.

10- When using Ressonance throdes echo (unwired), what matrix rating have the guest personna?

that all for now, but i am sure new questions will come to my mind soon. Thank you for answering

[Jaid]

1) the skill you're trying to learn.

2)

a) yes
b) yes
c) technically yes, but i would make a special case and say no.
d) no, that's not a matrix test.
e) defense yes, resistance no imo (but technically yes, just like c)
f) yes

3) the threshold is your stealth, not a stealth check that you make. so no, you don't add hacking, if you have 6 stealth it just has to get 6 hits (which is already plenty)

4) yes

5) yes

6) yes that cuts you free (though you get dumpshock), no you can't choose to do it to yourself (there aren't any cables to cut, and in any case that's basically what you're trying to do). you could hook up a biomonitor to a jammer or a drone with wirecutters something like that though.

7) i believe so, might be best to get further advice on this

8) technomancers are limited only by resonance. this applies to both matrix attributes (ie system, response) and complex forms (which can even go as high as 2 * resonance for a short time)

9) yes, you must keep track of it separately. it's only really a concern if you have defrag of course.

10) good question. i would be inclined to give them 0, largely because i get the feeling the echo is not intended for use on your friends. if i was feeling nice to the target, i'd probably assign the same matrix attributes as the technomancer's living persona.

[Kerrang]

1) The skill you are attempting to improve. When it comes to learning new skills, you won't have a skill to use here, just use Intuition, with a threshold of 1, it shouldn't be too hard to pick it up unless your Intuition is 2 or less (in which case, you may want to look at increasing your Intuition first).

2) I am using SR4A, so your page numbers are not exactly jiving with mine. If I have the correct section you are looking at (under Technomancer Skills), SR4A has this as "+2 dice pool bonus on all Matrix Perception tests".

3) The threshhold is just the stealth rating itself.

4) Black Hammer only causes stun damage against Cold Sim users.

5) He shouldn't even need the comlink, the Technomancer should be able to connect directly to the phone.

6) Yes, physically cutting the connection would work, but the hacker would suffer dumpshock. The Technomancer has no physical connection which can be severed, if they cannot log out, they are screwed.

7) Typically, when a Technomancer falls unconcious, the living persona shuts down, however, Unwired Page 135, under the heading 'Conciousness' notes that Black IC attacks have been shown to trap unconcious Technomancers online.

8 ) The Biological PAN is not like other nodes, it is basically and empty node. The system rating is not limited by the response, and complex forms are not limited by anything. Technomancers can use any number of complex forms without effecting their response rating.

9) I would simply track the damage done that is not able to be healed by defragging, as this is likely to be the easier way of doing it. Feel free to reverse that, track both, or wing it, whatever works for you.

10) Not sure on that one.

[daves456]

2) I am using SR4A, so your page numbers are not exactly jiving with mine. If I have the correct section you are looking at (under Technomancer Skills), SR4A has this as "+2 dice pool bonus on all Matrix Perception tests".

I am talking about the +2 on all test that all hotsim users, including TMs that are considered to run on hotsim, get because they can ''touch'' the code.

I wonder if the 2 bonus stacks,

Jenny a techomancer have analyse 3 and computer 4. When she is in AR, she get +2 since she a technomancer, so in AR his matrix perception is 3+4+2 so 9. But when she get in VR, does she add a 2 because of the hotsim bonus? That would mean 3+4+2+2 = 11.

[Kerrang]

I am talking about the +2 on all test that all hotsim users, including TMs that are considered to run on hotsim, get because they can ''touch'' the code.

I wonder if the 2 bonus stacks,

Jenny a techomancer have analyse 3 and computer 4. When she is in AR, she get +2 since she a technomancer, so in AR his matrix perception is 3+4+2 so 9. But when she get in VR, does she add a 2 because of the hotsim bonus? That would mean 3+4+2+2 = 11.

I see what you were asking now. I have always treated this as applying to anything considered a Matrix Action, so when applying this to the specific questions you asked, I see it as follows:

a- the fading tests - No, this is not an action, and the test has more to do with the Technomancer than the Matrix.
b- the threading tests - Yes
c- the biofeedback filter tests ( normally charisma + willpower for technomancers) - No, for the same reason as fading
d- the dumbshock ressistance tests. - No, same reason as a and c.
e- defense and ressistance in matrix combats. - Defense, yes, resistance, no.
f- any echoes that use ressonance as dice modifier - Most echoes are passive, and would not qualify for the bonus dice, something like defrag would probably gain the extra dice though.

Given the way the two are presented in the rules, I would say the matrix perception modifiers stack.

[daves456]

a- the fading tests - No, this is not an action, and the test has more to do with the Technomancer than the Matrix.

The book talk about, quote "all matrix test", the book does not mention anything about actions or not, that is why i cannot figure if the hotsim bonus is applicable or not. There two way to see that.

1- a matrix test is anything that use an ability, in the vr world, linked to computer, cracking, ressonance, registration, software, matrix attribute, complex form or registration. This would also allow people to get a +2 went training in VR.

or

2- a matrix test is anything that include a complex form , a software and OS ( system and firewall ). This would not apply to resonance tests.



Another thing, after thinking about it, i think armor and biofedback filter should be allowed to be affected by the hotsim bonus, because they can be used same as other software in coldsim, so if the other software have a +2 bonus in hotsim, why biofeedback filter and armor would be excluded?
This of course would also apply to TMs.

What do you think of that?

[toolbox]

The word "test" has a specific game-mechanical meaning - it's (paraphrased, as I don't have my book handy) whenever a dice pool is rolled for a particular purpose. So threading, compiling, registering and decompiling should benefit from a bonus to Matrix tests as much as any mundane hacking test. After all, you can't do any of them in physical or astral space, so they're Matrix tests by definition.

By that logic, the only way defensive programs would get this bonus is if they're actually rolled in a test.

[daves456]

The word "test" has a specific game-mechanical meaning - it's (paraphrased, as I don't have my book handy) whenever a dice pool is rolled for a particular purpose. So threading, compiling, registering and decompiling should benefit from a bonus to Matrix tests as much as any mundane hacking test. After all, you can't do any of them in physical or astral space, so they're Matrix tests by definition.

By that logic, the only way defensive programs would get this bonus is if they're actually rolled in a test.

hmmm, aren't defense and resistance rating actually rolled ? see the exemple SR4 p.153 or i am wrong?

[Kerrang]

You determine what your character
does in a situation and how well she does it by making a test—
rolling dice and determining the outcome by how well or poorly you
rolled. There are many situations in which the gamemaster will ask you
to make a test to determine how well you perform...

From my reading of this, a test is made when you are performing an action. The next section does mention that "When a player makes a test, she rolls a number of dice equal to her dice pool." If you want to be more liberal as a GM, you could take this to mean any time a dice pool is rolled it is a test. If that is the stance you take, you still need to determine whether the test is a Matrix Test, or Some Other Test. In the case of Fading, Dumpshock and Resistance Tests, it is my opinion that these tests have less to do with what is going on in the Matrix, and more to do with how the character itself responds to different potential sources of damage. So I, as a GM, would not allow them the bonus, regardless of what you perceive a test to be.

The Biofeedback Filter is a different thing, for Hackers it is a program, so I would give them a bonus to the test for hot sim. For TMs it is a part of their living persona, so I would be disinclined to allow the Hot Sim bonus for the reasons provided above, unless someone could come up with a compelling argument to convince me otherwise.

[daves456]

The Biofeedback Filter is a different thing, for Hackers it is a program, so I would give them a bonus to the test for hot sim. For TMs it is a part of their living persona, so I would be disinclined to allow the Hot Sim bonus for the reasons provided above, unless someone could come up with a compelling argument to convince me otherwise.

The TMs have a inherent Biofeedback filter witch equal their charisma. I someway, we can perceive this bonus as a complex form. If hackers have a bonus in hotsim for their biofeedback filter and if hacker's software and TMs complex forms are similar in gamerules, then TM should logically have the bonus for their biobackfilter. For same arguments, the armor CF and the shield should also have the +2. Anyone have a counter argument?

[Kerrang]

The TMs have a inherent Biofeedback filter witch equal their charisma. I someway, we can perceive this bonus as a complex form. If hackers have a bonus in hotsim for their biofeedback filter and if hacker's software and TMs complex forms are similar in gamerules, then TM should logically have the bonus for their biobackfilter. For same arguments, the armor CF and the shield should also have the +2. Anyone have a counter argument?

My only counter to that is that the rules specifically state that the Biofeedback Filter is not a Complex Form, and is instead a part of the TMs living persona.

After taking another look at Damage Resistance, I think that you would gain the bonus dice for those rolls, as page 237 of the main book states "Matrix damage to an icon from an Attack program is resisted with a System + Armor program Test", which seems to meet the criteria for a Matrix Test. Dumpshock Resistance seems out of line with this though, as that test is actually made outside of the Matrix.

[toolbox]

hmmm, aren't defense and resistance rating actually rolled ? see the exemple SR4 p.153 or i am wrong?

You could very well be right; I don't have any books handy. All I meant was that if they're rolled, they should get the hotsim bonus and if not, not.

[toolbox]

The Biofeedback Filter is a different thing, for Hackers it is a program, so I would give them a bonus to the test for hot sim. For TMs it is a part of their living persona, so I would be disinclined to allow the Hot Sim bonus for the reasons provided above, unless someone could come up with a compelling argument to convince me otherwise.

The hotsim bonus isn't specifically restricted to programs, is it? Rolling your Biofeedback Filter is a Matrix test and should receive the bonus. TMs are already at a pretty big disadvantage compared to hackers where Matrix damage is concerned anyway (i.e., it can kill them), so I don't think their defenses need to be innately worse than a hacker's in identical circumstances.

[Kerrang]

The hotsim bonus isn't specifically restricted to programs, is it? Rolling your Biofeedback Filter is a Matrix test and should receive the bonus. TMs are already at a pretty big disadvantage compared to hackers where Matrix damage is concerned anyway (i.e., it can kill them), so I don't think their defenses need to be innately worse than a hacker's in identical circumstances.

What it comes down to for me revolves around the question, is the Test being made in the Matrix, or outside the Matrix? With the Biofeedback Filter Program, it is unequivocal, the test is made inside the Matrix, you get the hotsim bonus. The TMs Biofeedback Filter, however, is part of the living persona, and the living persona is described as an "organic commlink and sim module in the Technomancer's head". This seems to infer to me that the test is made outside of the Matrix (inside the TMs meat bod), much like dumpshock. I can see why you would want to even the playing field, though, as TMs quite often get the short end of the stick compared to Hackers.

[toolbox]

What it comes down to for me revolves around the question, is the Test being made in the Matrix, or outside the Matrix? With the Biofeedback Filter Program, it is unequivocal, the test is made inside the Matrix, you get the hotsim bonus. The TMs Biofeedback Filter, however, is part of the living persona, and the living persona is described as an "organic commlink and sim module in the Technomancer's head". This seems to infer to me that the test is made outside of the Matrix (inside the TMs meat bod), much like dumpshock. I can see why you would want to even the playing field, though, as TMs quite often get the short end of the stick compared to Hackers.

Well, a standard Biofeedback Filter program is run on a hacker's commlink. I don't see how that's any more "inside the Matrix" than a technomancer's organic equivalent; they're both represented online by nodes (although the TM's is harder to hack) - it's just that the nodes are attached to different hardware. Biofeedback Filter is a program or (innate) complex form. Like most/all programs and CFs, it's not really usable in the astral or meatspace (dumpshock only comes into play when you're forcibly disconnected; BFBF is used, and used often, while still jacked in). Both versions do exactly the same thing, so how is using one version a Matrix test and the other not? That's my real reasoning, although yeah, TMs are already at a disadvantage where Matrix damage is concerned and probably don't need another one slapped on top of that.

[shuya]

What it comes down to for me revolves around the question, is the Test being made in the Matrix, or outside the Matrix? With the Biofeedback Filter Program, it is unequivocal, the test is made inside the Matrix, you get the hotsim bonus. The TMs Biofeedback Filter, however, is part of the living persona, and the living persona is described as an "organic commlink and sim module in the Technomancer's head". This seems to infer to me that the test is made outside of the Matrix (inside the TMs meat bod), much like dumpshock. I can see why you would want to even the playing field, though, as TMs quite often get the short end of the stick compared to Hackers.

"Technomancers have an inherent Biofeedback Filter complex form equal to their Charisma, and so cannot take this as a complex form."

ruling of the words (err... "wording of the rules," but it's such a cute mistake that i couldn't get rid of it) seems to make it rather clear that even a TMs biofeedback filter IS a complex form, just like any other complex form they possess...

i think your "internal/external" metaphor for whether or not something counts as a matrix test is kinda flawed, since technically the matrix doesn't exist AT ALL (consensual hallucination thank you very much) except as a distributed bunch of programs and hardware. like sustaining modifiers, i would be apt to give the hotsim bonus to everything but fading and damage resistance tests, grounding the differentiation within the metaphor of "active/passive," that is, the bonus applies to every test associated with a conscious act (not action, which is a rules-word), where the quicker reaction times associated with hotsim should actually matter most...

[Jaid]

also, it doesn't make sense that taking your brain to a less protected state (more of your brain is exposed in hotsim, that's why it's faster and why you take physical from black hammer) makes you better at resisting stuff that directly attacks your brain through that link.

[daves456]

New questions from my friend.

What are the effect of knock down?

[Doc Chaos]

New questions from my friend.

What are the effect of knock down?

Core Rulebook p.151/152

Please read through the index of the book before asking, Knockdown is listed...

[daves456]

Core Rulebook p.151/152

Please read through the index of the book before asking, Knockdown is listed...

i know this page, and it tell how it happen, but not what are the effects, and that what i need to know

[Doc Chaos]

The effect is, you get knocked down. Which is probably why this is called "knockdown". You get dropped on your butt by the force of the impact. End of story.

[DireRadiant]

New questions from my friend.

What are the effect of knock down?

You are knocked down and considered prone. In and of itself this isn't much.

However, it does affect various modifiers for people attacking you, and when you attack, as well as the little bit where it takes a Simple Action to stand up, unless you have the skills to get up without a Simple Action.

[Michel]

If the bonus for VR applies to Matrix actions, then one should report to the "Matrix action table" pp219.

And in the end I don't agree with the fact that compiling would receive +2... It is a resonnance test, not a matrix test... as for threading...

[toolbox]

And in the end I don't agree with the fact that compiling would receive +2... It is a resonnance test, not a matrix test... as for threading...

You say that as if Resonance tests and Matrix tests are mutually exclusive categories. Can you compile a sprite in astral space? No. A test that you can't even attempt without being in the Matrix is a Matrix test, unless you have a better definition for it. There's no "Matrix" trait to roll, so why can't a Resonance test be a Matrix test? Threading is a Software test which can only be performed in the Matrix. Does that count as a Matrix test? If not, what the flippin' hell does it take?

Seriously, if "Matrix test" doesn't include tests that you make in the Matrix and nowhere else, then it's an entirely meaningless term.

[DireRadiant]

And in the end I don't agree with the fact that compiling would receive +2... It is a resonnance test, not a matrix test... as for threading...

Can I Compile a Sprite if there is no Matrix?

Can I Thread if there is no Matrix?