Shooting Around Corners aka From Cover, Smartgun System (Smartlink) has a camera... Options

[CanadianWolverin...]

I was hoping that my fellow runners might have come to some more clarity on this subject. Recently, I was told by my GM (first gaming session) that even though the description of the Smartgun System / Smartlink mentions that it allows you to see around corners for firing solutions, that firing from cover would still incur the penalty of -1 dice pool, even though that description says the reason for the penalty is lack of visual on the target. One thought expressed was that it wasn't 'realistic' to fire from behind cover because you would break your wrist from the recoil, so still get the penalty.

Thoughts? Obviously I disagree and am looking for some support, but will end up agreeing only because I don't really want to get into a arguement about the game and ruin the fun.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif)

[Adarael]

It is hard enough in a combat situation to accurately fire from an optimal position. Firing while not in a straight-arm position is more difficult with a pistol. With longer firearms aimed around a corner, the difficulty will only increase given the longer and heavier nature of the weapons.

The penalty is good.

[toolbox]

I kind of agree with your GM's call on realism grounds. Don't forget that the smartlink gives you a +2 bonus, which derives partly from the extra visual capability you get from mounting a camera on your gun. Shooting around a corner with a smartgun then leaves you at a net modifier of +1 to your roll when compared to standing out in the open and firing an unmodded weapon. That's pretty good.

[BullZeye]

One sees a lot more through eyes than from a small camera so I understand the DP penalty. It's like using a scope in close range - you see sharply that small circle but with only one eye open, you don't see what's around making it bit difficult to find the target. And your guncam might not have all the nifty visual enchantments like low light/thermal/etc.

[maglaurus]

As a GM I'd rule that the penalty stands for two reasons:
--Looking through a camera at a situation is a different than standing in front of it and seeing it with your own eyes. Its most an issue of sight and motor control. Slight movements of the gun could result in radical shifts in vision.
--More importantly, just because you've stuck your hand around the corner doesn't mean you've improved your range of motion from behind cover. Part of the problem with cover is that it limits your perspective, another part is that it limits where you can move a weapon to make a clear shot.

[the_real_elwood]

If you ruled that smartguns allowed you to shoot from cover with no penalties, then gun combat is going to rapidly devolve into everyone taking shots at each other from cover (even more than it already does). The cover modifiers are there for game balance. But, as was stated earlier, someone with a smartlink shooting from cover is much better off than someone without.

[CanadianWolverin...]

Ahh, gameplay I am cool with, that I can get behind. 'Realism' on the other hand just puts the hairs on the back of my neck on end, especially considering both the fictional and fantastical aspects of the setting - that's not even getting into the use of dice, which I am pretty sure the book is very implicit about.

So, if I want to have some fun shooting around corners, I will be sure to not be doing dual pistols.

[Traul]

I don't think the camera is meant to be used tu cancel the fire from cover modifiers. If you use this modifier then your eyes are already out of cover, otherwise you would get the -6 modifier for blind fire. What the camera could be good for is firing from complete cover without that blind fire malus.

[Da9iel]

Malus? Isn't that an apple breed? Or are you spreading new made-up words. God bless the living language. I think the old fashioned word is "penalty." Don't get me started on boni!

/rant

[edit]Yeah, Thanks Doc Chaos. I was thinking after I logged off that rants like these, right or wrong, are useless. My apologies.[/edit]

[Doc Chaos]

"Malus" is latin, means "bad" (opposit of Bonus), in the german sourcebooks it is used as translation for penalty.

After talking to all my players, I banned guncams from my game. In our testruns it simply lead to people using nothing but them. And having shootouts where everyone is in cover and has to blind fire (or aim at someone elses hand/gun, good luck) just didnt fit into our idea of firefights.

[The Monk]

After talking to all my players, I banned guncams from my game. In our testruns it simply lead to people using nothing but them. And having shootouts where everyone is in cover and has to blind fire (or aim at someone elses hand/gun, good luck) just didnt fit into our idea of firefights.

I solved this by ruling that using a gun cam means that you use the sensor rating of the smart gun instead of agility. which is 1.

It is harsh but they could always upgrade the gun cam.

[Shrike30]

The smartgun system connects a firearm or projectile weapon directly to a user's smartlink. It incorporates ... a small camera. ... The camera allows for targeted shooting around corners, without exposing oneself to return fire.

We found it easiest to simply require a "take aim" (as you would with a scope) to fire a smartgun around a corner while still maintaining "full" cover, using only the weapon's camera. A lot of players aren't willing to halve their effective rate of fire in a gunfight... if for no other reason than hard cover is a hard thing to find.

[Blade]

What I do:

* There's at least the "firing from cover" modifier.
* If the character's firing position makes it difficult to handle the recoil or move the weapon, I might add another modifier.
* Keep in mind that only the vision modes installed on the guncam can be used. So no low-light/thermo if the guncam doesn't have them.
* Keep in mind that it makes you less aware of your surroundings (penalties of perception rolls)
* Use it a lot both as a player (when my character is likely to use it) and as a GM.

[toolbox]

Ahh, gameplay I am cool with, that I can get behind. 'Realism' on the other hand just puts the hairs on the back of my neck on end, especially considering both the fictional and fantastical aspects of the setting - that's not even getting into the use of dice, which I am pretty sure the book is very implicit about.

I think you mean "explicit." And if the term "realism" bothers you in this context, swap it out for "plausibility." Whatever you want to call it, shooting from a nonstandard firing position and aiming through a tiny video camera just isn't going to be as effective as a proper shooting posture (otherwise, as others have said, that's all anyone would ever do). Shadowrun as a game represents things like this with penalties, so...

[CanadianWolverin...]

I think you mean "explicit." And if the term "realism" bothers you in this context, swap it out for "plausibility." Whatever you want to call it, shooting from a nonstandard firing position and aiming through a tiny video camera just isn't going to be as effective as a proper shooting posture (otherwise, as others have said, that's all anyone would ever do). Shadowrun as a game represents things like this with penalties, so...

Even the use of the word plausible stretches it for me in the augmented fantasy future of SR4. If a cyber eye can provide enhanced sight over a regular human one, I am not really sure how a tiny video camera would be any kind of hindrance with the right triangulation from hardware and software, which the description of the smartgun/smartlink seems to suggest with target acquisition and calculating firing solutions.

Besides, you would be surprised what one could do to shoot from behind cover IRL and hit a target accurately. Position of the arm and a mirror would do just the trick in a pinch, it isn't too different than firing accurately from the hip, you are just rotating your arm in the shoulder from vertical to horizontal, putting your body in a stable position, and controlling your breathing. Unless I am misunderstanding what you are suggesting with "nonstandard firing position", that is pretty much how the best / trick shooters practice is in less than standard/common firing positions, from my understanding of things like the old wild west shows where the shooter would fire from the hip at playing cards shooting the aces out.

Hmm, I wonder what crazy stuff snipers in that Stalingrad movie would have done had they had cameras for their sights that they could view at all times by way of Augmented Reality through the Smartlink... Also, have you seen any of the future warrior concepts for use of drone or satellite imagery to identify and acquire firing solutions on enemy combatants? Very reminiscent of the smartgun/smartlink system.

That reminds me, I gotta get some sort of jamming/white noise equipment for my character, would be good in a pinch to mess up security trying to use a wireless smartgun system against 'im. I wonder if there is anything like that in the BBB...

That said though, I like the gameplay explaination, wouldn't be much fun if everyone was always behind cover and all you had to shoot at was the gun ... though that would make the importance of flanking to take away your opponents ability to have cover much more important.

[toolbox]

Even the use of the word plausible stretches it for me in the augmented fantasy future of SR4. If a cyber eye can provide enhanced sight over a regular human one, I am not really sure how a tiny video camera would be any kind of hindrance with the right triangulation from hardware and software, which the description of the smartgun/smartlink seems to suggest with target acquisition and calculating firing solutions.

Well, compare the hardware costs of cybereyes and smartgun systems. Some portion of that is due to the difference in video quality, since cybereyes are intended to surpass normal vision and smartgun cams... aren't. This is a fairly pointless tangent though, so enh.

That reminds me, I gotta get some sort of jamming/white noise equipment for my character, would be good in a pinch to mess up security trying to use a wireless smartgun system against 'im. I wonder if there is anything like that in the BBB...

There are ECM systems in there, but it likely wouldn't do any good. Even if the smartgun is wireless (more paranoid types will probably have it hardwired via fibre optics, which also provides a handy gun tether in the form of the cable), it's got a Signal rating of 0. ECM/jamming serves to reduce Signal strength by its own rating, but I'm pretty sure it's impossible to reduce Signal below 0, so there'd be no net effect. If you need to mess with someone's wireless gear like that, make nice with your team's hacker and get him to do it instead.

[Stahlseele]

Shooting around corners seems not to be all that hard if you are using something like this: http://www.cornershot.com/

[BullZeye]

Even the use of the word plausible stretches it for me in the augmented fantasy future of SR4. If a cyber eye can provide enhanced sight over a regular human one, I am not really sure how a tiny video camera would be any kind of hindrance with the right triangulation from hardware and software, which the description of the smartgun/smartlink seems to suggest with target acquisition and calculating firing solutions.

How does one triangulate via single camera? A camera can show a small area at a time compared to a human eye. Ever tried using a scope on a gun and find a target that you are unaware of it's location? There's a good reason why spotters are used for that.

Besides, you would be surprised what one could do to shoot from behind cover IRL and hit a target accurately. Position of the arm and a mirror would do just the trick in a pinch, it isn't too different than firing accurately from the hip, you are just rotating your arm in the shoulder from vertical to horizontal, putting your body in a stable position, and controlling your breathing. Unless I am misunderstanding what you are suggesting with "nonstandard firing position", that is pretty much how the best / trick shooters practice is in less than standard/common firing positions, from my understanding of things like the old wild west shows where the shooter would fire from the hip at playing cards shooting the aces out.

Those things work if you have the time to take aim or have practiced zillion times but it's a whole another thing during a combat situation. You can always spend few aim actions to negate the penalty, but no matter what, it's still a lot easier to use a weapon as intended than using it behind a corner or whatnot. The cornershoot system that Stahlseele pointed out does work nicely, but it's still far from being as good as sticking head out and aim carefully. Yes, it's a lot safer and what it's intended it's doing a good job, but it just isn't perfect. The idea of it is to be able to aim and shoot without opponent ever noticing you. Shooting behind cover and shooting blindly are two quite different things.

Also, cards don't shoot back (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Was it Tac-net or something what the system was called on SR to be able to use multiple cameras and audio devices to map out the battlefield to get bonus for combat? That's what you need if you want to have your smartlinked guns work behind corners and such.

[Traul]

A camera can show a small area at a time compared to a human eye.

That's wrong:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wide-angle_lens
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fisheye_lens
That is available for any good camera. If you want to go into cutting edge hardware:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnidirectional_camera

Plus the smartgun camera does not come with vision magnification included. The comparison with a scope does not stand.

[Mercer]

And if the term "realism" bothers you in this context, swap it out for "plausibility."

Even the use of the word plausible stretches it for me in the augmented fantasy future of SR4.

Why don't we compromise on "verisimilitude".

I solved this by ruling that using a gun cam means that you use the sensor rating of the smart gun instead of agility. which is 1.

It is harsh but they could always upgrade the gun cam.

I like this solution. My group's old houserule was that cover was a penalty you took (up to 3) that gave your opponents double that penalty. So if I took -3 to my shot, the opponent would have -6 to shoot me. (And it was actually pluses to the target number, but whatev.) You could aim it down (so that sneaky people would often be able to get rid of their penalties), but it was easy to keep track of and we liked it.

I never much cared for the corner shooting, because it seemed to me that holding the firearm more awkwardly would incur a larger penalty than simply taking cover. (Off the top of my head, I'd give it a -3-- half what blindfire incurs, and with a smartlink just a little worse than holding the weapon properly and using iron sights.) A big part of the penalty to the shot would seem to be the inability to track on a target intuitively.

Either way, if we're going to be doing a lot of corner shooting, we need to come up with better rules for damaging objects, since it seems like people are going to be making a lot of called shots to the other guy's guncam.

[Chrysalis]

So it means that most of the Shadowrunners shoot like most third world militia: they would just stick a weapon out from around a corner, they wouldn't even take that moment to aim, they just would spray with automatic fire. Shooting from windows and alleyways without actually seeing who they were shooting, women jumping out from behind the buildings, people running a couple of feet down an alleyway. Most of their cover made from corrugated tin and particle board.

[CanadianWolverin...]

Sorry, seems there are a few things I am not fully comprehending aka confuse my newbie mind is. Er, is my SR4 book missing something? I am looking at the firearm accessories table on page 311 since the description doesn't have a, er what was it called, capacity rating like the cyberware tables seem to have, I have Mount, Availability and Cost ... so where does the sensor or device rating come from?

Here is what I am working with:
page 141 SR4

Attacker Firing From Cover
Hiding behind cover limits a character's ability to see the action, even if they move out from behind cover to shoot, and so applies a -1 dice pool modifier to any attacks.

page 311 - 312 SR4

Smartgun System
The smartgun system connects a firearm or projectile weapon directly to a user's smartlink (see p. 323). It incorporates a laser range finder and a small camera, and keeps track of ammunition, heat buildup, and material stress. <snip> The camera allows for targeted shooting around corners, without exposing oneself to return fire.
The system makes use of advanced calculation software, allowing the user to aim even weapons with a highly balistic firing arc (like grenades) with tremendous precision over any distance. The smartgun system can be accessed via wireless link, <snip> The small camera can be equipped with vision enhancements (p. 323).

Because of those things I read I put enhancements on the smartgun, smartlinked to some contacts, through the skinlink so as to avoid that accessing via wireless link thing.

So if my sight is overlayed with the Augmented Reality coming from the pistol's smartgun system, wouldn't that be just like sticking my head out around the corner to see without actually having to? And then what would be exposed would be the pistol and my hand holding it and the forearm behind it bent at the elbow like I was firing from the hip, raising or turning my arm as needed to track a target accurately. Then if they get the chance to shoot back, they would be facing a -2, -4, or -6 depending on how good my cover is and the material of the cover might provide the whole barrier thing, so they would be shooting through the barrier or destroying the barrier.

Am I missing something? I think the net +1 if I use one pistol plus the smartlink/smartgun +2 and the -1 from shooting from cover it is still ok, I just hope you might understand my confusion with how the descriptions stack up.

So, how much vision enhancements can I put into the smartgun camera? How about my contacts? The tables and descriptions don't seem to be at all clear on their capacity like the tables with cyber eyes.

[Stahlseele]

To be watching this please.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RaubAtWZQM
Put in InfraDead or LowBlight. Maybe Laser-Pointer too.
Combine with the Radar-Sensor and ultra-Sound and you can shoot everything.
First use the Radar to see through wall if there's someone behind there, then use this to actually shoot AROUND the Wall.

[CanadianWolverin...]

To be watching this please.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RaubAtWZQM
Put in InfraDead or LowBlight. Maybe Laser-Pointer too.
Combine with the Radar-Sensor and ultra-Sound and you can shoot everything.
First use the Radar to see through wall if there's someone behind there, then use this to actually shoot AROUND the Wall.

Yes, exactly. And with this you wouldn't even have to expose your hand and forearm. In movies, a version of this showed up in Wanted near the start when there was the shoot out in the drug store with Fox, Angelina Jolie's character, using this while using cover...

[Stahlseele]

If someone wants to argue, shell out 200 bucks in character for this. then show this vid around and tell them that you are using this.