Seeing the Physical from the Astral Options

[Gunbunny]

Quick question: If a mage is in the astral plane, what sort of check, if any, is required to view the physical plane. Are they required to manifest to do so?

Thanks!

GB

[DireRadiant]

None. They can only perceive the physical plane by the way it appears in the astral plane.

Remember, astral sense is a different separate sense then sight, it's only described in terms or vision for our benefit. A blind awakened person can perceive astrally just fine.

Use an assensing test to see if the astral observer can tell what's happening on the physical plane in "physical plane" terms. Assensing is the skill they use to be able to tell what's exactly happening in the physical -plane.

[Gunbunny]

Is there a page I can reference for this so that I can show my player?

GB

[DireRadiant]

Read the Astral Perception Section SR4 p. 182|SR4A p. 191 . Check out the last paragraph.

"Astral perception is a psychic
sense that is not linked to
the character’s physical sight."

Also, Manifesting SR4 p. 184|SR4A p. 193

Manifesting is purely a psychic phenomena. Real people can interact with a manifesting mage because they also have a psychic part, even if they don't know how to use it.

Oh, if they use the "But it doesn't say I can't" argument, hit them.

[Gunbunny]

Thanks Dire for cleaning that up.

[RedeemerofOgar]

Can an astrally-projecting mage use Clairvoyance to properly see the "real world"? If not, is there a spell that does allow it?

[Machiavelli]

No, they can only affect things on their plane.

[nezumi]

They can summon an elemental, nature spirit or watcher, have that materialize and check out the physical, and report back to the summoner, with the obvious difficulty of gettign a watcher to do things like read and report reliably.

[Traul]

Watchers cannot materialize.

[Machiavelli]

But they can manifest. Shouldn´t this be enough? Besides that, watchers are stupid, he couldn´t tell you anything (at least in our group, sometimes our GM´s suck).

[DireRadiant]

But they can manifest. Shouldn´t this be enough? Besides that, watchers are stupid, he couldn´t tell you anything (at least in our group, sometimes our GM´s suck).

What is the effective difference between a Manifesting Watcher and a Manifesting Projecting Mage? Why would one be able to have Sight, Sound, Taste, Touch etc and not the other? How does the psychic projection from the Astral plane to the physical Plane gain the ability to perceive the physical plane?

Even if you us ea Spirit that materializes, there is still the question of whether or not a Materialized spirit has the appropriate physical sense available to use as a means to pass on the description.

And we all know how effective second descriptions of experiences compare to the direct personal experience.

[Mr. Mage]

Watchers cannot materialize.

But they can manifest. So they can at least look at the physical plane.

Edit: Oops, the last two posts didn't manifest for me so I guess I'm just repeating. hehe...

[DireRadiant]

But they can manifest. So they can at least look at the physical plane.

Manifesting means the physical plane can look at you. Not the other way. Manifesting astral entities do not appear to technological devices.

"If a purely astral form such as a spirit or an astrally projecting magician
wishes to interact with the physical plane, she must manifest.
Manifesting is a psychic effect that allows an astral form to make
itself visible and audible on the physical plane through an act of will.
Manifesting takes a Simple Action to engage or disengage. Manifesting
characters and spirits appear on the physical plane as ghostly, hazy
images and may freely communicate with physical characters. Unlike
the Materialization power of spirits (p. 296), manifesting does not
create a physical form, and so the character cannot physically interact
with anything, nor can she be harmed by physical attacks. Because
manifestation is a psychic effect, manifested characters cannot be detected,
recorded, or affected by technological devices. Likewise, manifesting
beings are still subject to astral attacks."

[Mr. Mage]

But it says interact with physical residents. Hmmm....if you can "freely communicate" to those on the physical plane, one would think that you could hear them too, since communication is usually two way (doesn't the prefix co imply between multiple people? Cooperation, cohosts, etc.)

If it's only one way, then that doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me...but I think it says that Watcher spirits specifically can find things on the material plane, so maybe there is a little more to manifesting, hmm? If I'm just making that up though, feel free to call me on it.

[nezumi]

You're right, watchers couldn't help much.

The astral mage can already hear the mundane world (at least in SR3). He just can't see things normally (so can't read).

[DireRadiant]

But it says interact with physical residents. Hmmm....if you can "freely communicate" to those on the physical plane, one would think that you could hear them too, since communication is usually two way (doesn't the prefix co imply between multiple people? Cooperation, cohosts, etc.)

If it's only one way, then that doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me...but I think it says that Watcher spirits specifically can find things on the material plane, so maybe there is a little more to manifesting, hmm? If I'm just making that up though, feel free to call me on it.

The Manifesting Entity is projecting a Psychic impression on the perceiver on the Physical Plane. Since the perceiver is something is "alive" and has a living aura, you can pretend that they do have a vestigial undeveloped psychic sense, and the Manifester is simply making the effort to project their psychic presence to the Mundane. The Awakened being is "Shouting" louder at the Unawakened with the psychic sense. There are other places in the books where Mundanes can perceive Magic and Astral events, even if they are not fully Awakened.

For example, even if you are deaf, if the sound is loud enough you can tell it's there because the sound itself will physically affect your entire body. Think of Manifesting as turning the dial to 11.

Watcher spirits find things on the Physical plane because everything on the physical plane has an astral shadow. The Watcher is really finding the astral shadow of the physical thing it is looking for.

[Warlordtheft]

There are other places in the books where Mundanes can perceive Magic and Astral events, even if they are not fully Awakened.

Alchera (sp?) for example. A fine example is Wuxing HQ in Hong Kong or the Lacuna in LA.