Dual-Natured Sight, What can (and CAN'T) you see? Options

[Kerenshara]

Dual natured beings can perceive astrally without penalty, and are treated as being in both planes at once. It clearly states (somewhere, I don't feel like digging out a cite) that astrally perceiving entities can NOT perceive physical objects with information on them like printed paper or a computer screen, as they simply show up as a vague shadowy form.

Can somebody PLEASE give me a solid answer on this (and provide the cite to back it up): Can a dual-natured creature (say, a manifesting spirit or one of the dual-natured infected) read a computer screen or a sign on the wall? Or does the "astrally perceiving" part overrule? I would THINK that they could, but I want somebody to actually show it to me in black and white, because I have given up looking myself.

Oh, and if you're just planning to post something Trollish or sarcastic, please skip to another thread. I am trying to get some honest help from the people here, and I know the question is going to sound stupid to many of you.

Thanks in advance for your help!

[Athenor]

I assume it is like a toggle, where the player can switch it on or off like the visors in Metroid Prime. In gameplay terms, it isn't worth worrying about unless the creature is projecting, in which case things are either colorful or gray. Same works for creatues that are dual natured all the time -- It's like looking in a different spectrum.

[Traul]

Is this what you want?

Astral perception is a psychic sense that is not linked to the character’s physical sight.

These are different senses. Calling it astral "sight" instead of astral perception mislead you. You cannot hear that piece of paper either, but that does not prevent you from reading it. All your senses are effective at the same time, then the brain merges the information to build the big picture. Yes, it sounds pretty much like a TacNet (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[crizh]

Dual Natured beings can see and assense simultaneously. Only spirits and purely astral forms have ever had any restriction on being able to read and see computer screens, books etc.

SR4 was consciously altered to remove this anomaly. Later on when Synner became the line developer he was actively hostile to this position and endeavoured to move things back the other way until Rob asked him to stop it.

Nonetheless a ridiculous restriction on Free Spirits reading 'electronic projections' appeared in Runner's Companion.

If you check the FAQ you will see that spirits are explicitly permitted to access the Matrix using AR provided no DNI is used. Goggles with image link and AR gloves and you're good to go.

[Athenor]

Okay, I like those responses and logic better, actually.

Edit: You know, it makes a lot more sense that dual natured beings can still read and all that. I mean.. Otherwise, wouldn't Buttercup or Perriwyn be kind of screwed over, to say nothing of Lowfyr? And then there's historical dragons... Yeah. Definitely going to go down this route. Low force spirits maybe not so much (low logic values), but definitely stronger spirits and dual natured creatures will be able to read in my games.

[Kerenshara]

Dual Natured beings can see and assense simultaneously. Only spirits and purely astral forms have ever had any restriction on being able to read and see computer screens, books etc.

SR4 was consciously altered to remove this anomaly. Later on when Synner became the line developer he was actively hostile to this position and endeavoured to move things back the other way until Rob asked him to stop it.

Nonetheless a ridiculous restriction on Free Spirits reading 'electronic projections' appeared in Runner's Companion.

If you check the FAQ you will see that spirits are explicitly permitted to access the Matrix using AR provided no DNI is used. Goggles with image link and AR gloves and you're good to go.

OK, that explains both why I was confused to start with (having read the passage in Runner's Companion) and how it really IS. It's what I thought it ought to be in the first place. If it's in the FAQ it's probably somewhere in SR4A, but I will wait till the blasted thing shows up (finally) in my mail box in dead-tree format.

Thank you for the responses. I wanted to make sure I was on the right track, because I want to work up a Free/Wild Spirit and being able to read a book is kind of key to the idea.

[toturi]

Dual natured beings can perceive astrally without penalty, and are treated as being in both planes at once. It clearly states (somewhere, I don't feel like digging out a cite) that astrally perceiving entities can NOT perceive physical objects with information on them like printed paper or a computer screen, as they simply show up as a vague shadowy form.

Can you back this up in the first place? I think that this is the crux of the matter. If you can post the relevant quote, I think we can clear this up quickly.

[Generico]

From Runner's Companion page 92

"Free Spirit Perception
Free Spirits on the physical plane are dual-natured beings. As
with other dual-natured entities, a spirit’s ethereal senses are able
to sense both worlds without incurring modifers for acting on
both planes at the same time. Note, however, that spirits are un-
able to see or interpret simsense, electronic projections on screens,
or AR displays. "

That's where that stupidity originates, and the faq fixes it.

[Athenor]

So here's a concept...


What is hearing like on the astral plane?


From SR4A, p.191:

Astral perception is a psychic sense that is not linked to the character’s physical sight. A blind magician can still magically perceive the astral plane and the creatures and auras within. Likewise, deaf magicians can “hear� in astral space.

[Straight Razor]

hear is an interesting question?
can duel-natured creatures whom are awakened astral project?

my group has always gone with no. but i can't really think where we got that idea.

[Summerstorm]

Sure they can. They just cannot "turn it off" when they are in their body. Why wouldn't they be able to project? (Of course they have to be magicians)

[Falconer]

The answer is very simple Karenshara. And it's already RAW and right in the free spirit construction section!

Take "low-light vision" as an optional power for your spirit (it's only on the task spirit optional power list IIRC, so your tradition would have to include them). Now you can both *see* and *assense* at the same time while manifesting. It's utterly pointless to have 'low-light vision' and 'thermographic vision' as optional powers for a task spirit, unless that's how they work.

In fact, it's really easy for you to see this on the spirit page. Chart p92 Runner's companion.
.25magic. Enhanced Senses (Hearing, Low-light, smell, thermographic).

Now you have full senses while materialized.


So for .75 points, you can hear, see, and smell like a normal character.

Though you might only want hearing and sight, so you don't have to smell the troll.


I don't see the inability to read paper or computer screens while purely astral as a problem, as it eliminates a lot of silliness which can result from astral recon. Now you actually have to break into someplace to find something rather than just watching the mage play astral peeping tom.

My reading of the rules is quite simple... if you just make a free spirit w/o buying those powers. You CANNOT interact w/ AR at all. The paragraph on p92 is clearly rules and quite explicit. You're for most purposes little different than a ghoul who also can't interact w/ AR. Until he buys off his blindness (in your case, buying the CHEAP vision power, in his case buying cybereyes).

[Traul]

I think there is a problem with the very definition of "dual-natured". The astral perception paragraph states any astrally perceiving character becomes dual-natured AND that he cannot perceive physically and astraly at the same time. Then you have this paragraph in the runner's companion.

Seems the devs should clean it up and make a difference between permanent dual beings and temporary dual beings. Or definitely wipe out the exclusion between between physical and astral perception for metahumans.

[Athenor]

I don't see the inability to read paper or computer screens while purely astral as a problem, as it eliminates a lot of silliness which can result from astral recon. Now you actually have to break into someplace to find something rather than just watching the mage play astral peeping tom.

Don't confuse astral perception with astral projection. With perception, you are just putting out a 6th sense. With projection, you are only using that sense. Spirits follow different rules because they are used to existing as dual natured innately.

[Kerenshara]

I think there is a problem with the very definition of "dual-natured". The astral perception paragraph states any astrally perceiving character becomes dual-natured AND that he cannot perceive physically and astraly at the same time. Then you have this paragraph in the runner's companion.

Seems the devs should clean it up and make a difference between permanent dual beings and temporary dual beings. Or definitely wipe out the exclusion between between physical and astral perception for metahumans.

That is EXACTLY what was causing my ... dithering on the matter.

[Falconer]

Athenor, by definition a mage who is projecting is using 'astral perception'. Even if he manifests (and is visible to normal people) he can't see normally. He's limited to astral perception. Which means he can hear and see normally on the astral.

The entirety of confusion w/ the term 'dual-natured' comes from this.

The shadowrun authors have a BAD habit of using the same word or phrase for two different things (critter vs PC normally... which complicates things in RC as it gives 'critter' options to PC's). I'd really appreciate it if the devs would actually make an attempt to use unique vocabulary when describing different things. For shame, they're *WRITERS* if they can't think of a few synonyms and creative wording they should turn in their pens and thesauri. Look at 'Mystic Armor' for adepts and again as a critter power. If an adept, it gives 1 point of impact, ballistic, & astral armor. If it's a critter power, it only gives 1 point of astral armor.


Dual natured is similar... critters WHICH CAN"T TURN OFF THEIR DUAL-NATURED being, take no penalty for assensing & percieving at the same time. If you're a normal PC though, you can only use either your mundane senses, or your psychic senses. Not being able to turn off your dual natured abilities is a drawback keep in mind.


The entire question comes down to this. What senses does a spirit come equipped with?! If they only have astral perception to boot... then they need to pick up extra senses. We're used to taking sight,sound,touch,taste,smell for granted. But in shadowrun... there are more senses & the real world there are more senses than this (such as sharks w/ electrosense) and better or worse 'grades' (bloodhounds nose vs. a cat's nose).

Quite frankly... if spirits are equipped w/ normal senses... then reconning an office could be as simple as going in astrally. Materializing a spirit, then have it open the cabinets and read the contents to you. The restriction on AR and such is very real, as it keeps a lot of runs more complicated when it comes to obtaining paydata as you actually have to break and enter somehow. (even wards aren't that scary if you can mask your way through them and imitate their creator).


If we look at the "Materialization" power for a spirit... we see it gets no additional senses for taking on an astral form. Hence, you need to go elsewhere to pick them up somehow.

[Athenor]

SR4A:

It takes a Simple Action to shift one’s perception from the astral to the physical, and another to shift it back again (it is not possible to see both at the same time, though almost everything in physical space is reflected on the astral, albeit without detail).

This implies it is focus and conscious attention. Again, in pure game terms it really doesn't matter as a simple action is at worst 1.5 seconds of concentration, so in roleplaying terms you just take a glance around at the auras and then block them out and stop being dual natured. For projecting it matters a bit more.

Yeah, this could be cleaned up a bit, but I'm still operating on 3rd edition descriptions: The astral has everything in it that is somewhat permanent as a gray opaque object, and living things showing up vibrant (hell, last night someone made out the interior layout of a base because of the FAB showing up!). We've never had issues of focus as the perception checks are quick glimpses rather than extended affairs.

Edit: Quick note, as I understand where the above poster is coming from. AR wouldn't work when astrally projecting because quite frankly the body isn't exactly in a position where the wireless and ARO's would be interacting with the meat body. Well.. usually. You know what I mean.

[Falconer]

Athenor:
Now look at p294, under the critter power.

You'll see it's different, as the critter form means A. they can't turn it on and off. N. they always perceive in both at no penalty. There's a difference between a metahuman w/ 'astral perception' and something w/ the critter power 'dual natured'. Further confused because they then use 'dual natured' again to describe an astrally percieving mage or adept in the magic section.


A spirit is analogous to a projecting mage... it can materialize or possess to enter the physical realm, but it always has an active astral form.


BTW: the two spirit types w/ extra sensory options available are beast spirits and task spirits.

[Athenor]

Invoking GM fiat doesn't fly around here, does it?


I kid, I kid. This is actually pretty fascinating and I fully understand what you are getting at, and agree mostly. The post above about conflicting views on magic amongst the developers suggests a lot on the subject as well. My guess is that after 20 years things got muddy and hard to nail down, and no one was willing to go all the way on either 4th edition. But I'm pulling that out of my ass, so.

[DireRadiant]

Dual Natured = Someone with both astral perception and normal senses.

Astral Perception is used to perceive astral things
Normal Senses are used to perceive normal things.

Astral Perception is not used to perceive normal things.
Normals Senses are not used to perceive Astral things.

Normal things have astral shadows.

Astral Perception can be used to perceive the astral shadows.

Astral Shadow of a written page does not display the writing on the page.

A projecting mage is fully in the astral plane, and can only use their astral perception there. (While the also have a normal sense, it's in their body they left behind.)

An astrally perceiving mage, still in their body and not projecting, has both Astral Perception and Normal perception. (They aren't always like this so they get a penalty.)

Materializing spirits are creating a physical body, they may or may not have a normal sense, but they are Dual Natured while Manifesting.

Manifesting is a special case. An astral entity can Manifest, projecting a psychic image of themselves to someone who is purely physical. How does this work? Think of the fact that even non Dual Natured things have astral shadows. That is, they have an astral side. Manifesting is simply the Astral manipulating capable being imposing the ability on the non astral capable being the temporary ability to astral perceive their manifest form via psychic exertion. There are other examples of mundanes gaining access to astral perception temporarily. (Tempo anyone?)

[Traul]

Dual Natured = Someone with both astral perception and normal senses.

That does not work. An astrally perceiving metahuman is dual natured while assensing but temporarily loses his physical senses.

Dual Natured = depends on who wrote the article and which book it fits in. Yes, it sucks.

[Zaranthan]

That does not work. An astrally perceiving metahuman is dual natured while assensing but temporarily loses his physical senses.

Can you cite a reference for this? I recall reading that seeing the real world while astrally perceiving carries a -2 distraction penalty, not that it's simply impossible.

[Traul]

Can you cite a reference for this? I recall reading that seeing the real world while astrally perceiving carries a -2 distraction penalty, not that it's simply impossible.

It's in the Astral Perception paragraph in the base book (although it obviously only apply to metahumans, not to permanent dual natured beings (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif) ).

It takes a Simple Action to shift one's perception from the astral to the physical, and another to shift it back again (it is not possible to see both at the same time, though almost everything in physical space is reflected on the astral, albeit without detail). A character using astral perception is considered dual-natured, active on both the physical and astral planes simultaneously.

[crizh]

The current FAQ and RC are in dispute. The FAQ was to be updated and presumably RC errata'd to gift Spirits all five normal human senses as Synner said here.

Regarding spirit senses. After much discussion among the devs, the next FAQ update will clarify that spirits on the physical plane (whether possession or materializing) replicate the five basic/metahuman/unaugmented senses (ie. essentially those that the magician who summoned them had). Free and Wild Spirits are up to the GM. However, as with all dual natured beings their astral sense is permanently integrated with their remaining senses. This is a result of the same process which shapes and imprints their material form (which in turn is an ectoplasmic metamorphic energy field of sorts). This ruling (which contradicts my earlier post on DSF) was ultimately taken so as not to generate a cascade of tweaks in multiple books.

That said, I will reiterate what I've said previously on the subject: were I developing the spirit rules today (or sometime in the future), as astral/non-human beings with no natural physical bodies, spirits would not possess "human" senses by default, just their innate astral sense. "Normal Senses" (defined as whatever unaugmented senses the original conjuring magician possessed or the GM cares to give the spirit if it is Free or Wild) would be an Optional Power some spirits might possess.

[DireRadiant]

That does not work. An astrally perceiving metahuman is dual natured while assensing but temporarily loses his physical senses.

Dual Natured = depends on who wrote the article and which book it fits in. Yes, it sucks.

Having the sense but not using it doesn't mean you don't have the sense. I have sight even though I close my eyes.