NAN Fading, Has the NAN somehow faded into obscurity? Options

[Kerenshara]

I used to like the detailed information and focus on the Native American Nations and their denizens in the earlier editions of the game, but it seems with each successive itteration of the main rules, the NAN seem to fade more and more into meta-obscurity. Does anybody else feel that way, and/or does anybody know of intentions to resurect some of the material and update it significantly for 4th ed?

[DireRadiant]

It's history. Ancient History. The latest edition concentrates much more on mechanics and mood/genre setting related to that. More goodies. Fluff and settings are in Fluff books.

Actually it's no problem at all using SR3 NAN source books for SR4 anyway.

Having worked with a few other systems where every splat book contained new rules instead of being cool optional extensions I think it's really nice I can still use a lot of my old SR3 source books very easily with the SR4 ruleset. There's actually tons more material ready to use with SR4 then most other games have with their new editions.

edit: There's always talk about a SR4 world almanac type book. I assume NAN updates would be included in that.

[kzt]

IMNSHO they were a dumb idea poorly executed, and the inherent sillyness of the entire concept became more and more obvious as time passed. It appears everyone has agreed to pretend they don't exist, and the game is better for it.

[The Jake]

I get the impression this is deliberate.

- J.

[the_real_elwood]

I guess you can just not talk about the NAN's, but how can you just write them out of the metaplot? And I don't think they're any more stupid of an idea or poorly executed than the Tirs.

[Kerenshara]

I guess you can just not talk about the NAN's, but how can you just write them out of the metaplot? And I don't think they're any more stupid of an idea or poorly executed than the Tirs.

Thank you. You spoke FOR me.

[Kerenshara]

Actually it's no problem at all using SR3 NAN source books for SR4 anyway.

Having worked with a few other systems where every splat book contained new rules instead of being cool optional extensions I think it's really nice I can still use a lot of my old SR3 source books very easily with the SR4 ruleset. There's actually tons more material ready to use with SR4 then most other games have with their new editions.

I personally consider 3rd ed to be akin to Star Trek V: "Star Trek V? There IS no Star Trek V!" - alleged quote of Gene Roddenberry on his death bed.

I bought a couple of the books, and have since lost them without a scrap of remorse for their disapearance.

If I was going to buy a 3rd ed product to get some more updates, I keep hearing about ShadowBeat; Does that really cover it, or are there other books I should be looking for? I remember skimming New Seatle in the game store when it came out and wanting to cry. I STILL have my old copy of the original Seatle Sourcebook safely packed away.

[Megu]

IMNSHO they were a dumb idea poorly executed, and the inherent sillyness of the entire concept became more and more obvious as time passed. It appears everyone has agreed to pretend they don't exist, and the game is better for it.

I think they're a fabulous idea, but I agree they were executed poorly. The idea of indigenous cultures using magical power to rise up gives the Awakening a cultural twist that makes it feel less like "our world with magic tacked onto it". Not to mention, I just like it for the indigenous-empowerment angle.

That said, poorly executed. The NAN and SoNA books make up crazy population figures when First Nations groups make up <1% of the modern US and Canada, and yet act like they somehow moved virtually all white people out of the American West. Moreover, even with the one-drop rule Indians and Latinos counted in, the movement never would have survived without bringing in significant numbers of ideologically-compatible pinkskins, from metahumans and their families, to magicians, to anti-corp, ecologist, and anti-federal government activist groups. Finally, things like the Lone Eagle incident would be a death knell for garnering any kind of popular support.

I tend to run SR with the idea that the Ghost Dance War was as much a massive cultural shift as a military revolt, and with the idea that a great many of the "Native Americans" of 2070 are reverse-assimilated Anglos. They didn't cause massive casualties, at least not until the final stages, but the US wore itself out trying to put out the fires of an insurgency with a hammer.

I think the reason they're less prominent now is that the focus isn't solely on North America anymore. We're hearing just as much about what's happening on the other four continents that aren't Australia (for all we know the kangaroos have taken over down there), and I think that's a good thing, considering that nothing says future shock like overglobalization.

[Critias]

Shadows of North America is the most recent book that spends any considerable amount of space on NAN countries. A few of them are touched on (in the Michael Jackson way) in System Failure, put SONA is the one you're after if you'd like something more up-to-date than NAN1 and NAN2.

[tarbrush]

I think the reason they're less prominent now is that the focus isn't solely on North America anymore. We're hearing just as much about what's happening on the other four continents that aren't Australia (for all we know the kangaroos have taken over down there), and I think that's a good thing, considering that nothing says future shock like overglobalization.

You realise that the alternative title for Target: Awakened Lands is Shadowrun Down Under, right?

[The Jake]

I personally found SoNA to be largely irrelevant. Probably one of the most supremely disappointing books I've read in awhile.

- J.

[the_real_elwood]

NAN vol. 1 and NAN vol. 2 are both quite good. And I guess the population figures of the NAN states never really bothered me, because I hadn't thought about it until you mentioned it. But if you hand-wave away the survival of the first generation of NAN citizens, there's no reason the NAN states couldn't be fully-functioning in the 2070's.

[LurkerOutThere]

I've always felt that the NAN idea was an overcomplication born of the desire to shake up the status quo without really considering what it would involve. To depopulate the western half of the US of any non-indians would be something the government, nor those people would ever agree to. For the one thing, there's no place to put them, for another there's no reason for them to choose uprooting as a viable alternative to death. Even overlooking the fact that it would be one of the greatest human atrocities in the history of the world (the simultanious relocation of millions of people) it's just not feasable by sheer numbers, even with magical help. Furthermore even if it had happened there's not a lot of reason to believe the UCAS wouldn't have tried to take the lands back once the magical playing field was leveled a bit.

In short I always felt the fall of nations through extraterritoriality and the rise of the megacorps made a better story then geo-politically cutting north america in two big chunks on racial lines did. With a token "the south rose again".

[Backgammon]

I personally found SoNA to be largely irrelevant. Probably one of the most supremely disappointing books I've read in awhile.

- J.

I feel the complet opposite.

Anyway, Ghost Cartels touches on NAN culture a few times through Native "First Nations" gangs. Considering the theme of the book, I think NAN criminal elements get a pretty decent slice of the spotlight. True the other setting books have not talked about the NAN much, but SoNA was pretty complete. The upcoming Seattle book will probably have a bit more NAN influences.

[Critias]

It doesn't do anyone any favors to think too hard about the game's broad macro-scale backstory stuff. Just accept it as written, play the best games you can within the I-Have-Exercised-My-Right-To-Willfully-Suspend-My-Disbelief framework, and have fun with it. It's not worth overthinking. I have way more fun just accepting the sourcebooks as written (so that I can feel I got my money's worth out of them), and making my characters accordingly.

[the_real_elwood]

I've always felt that the NAN idea was an overcomplication born of the desire to shake up the status quo without really considering what it would involve. To depopulate the western half of the US of any non-indians would be something the government, nor those people would ever agree to. For the one thing, there's no place to put them, for another there's no reason for them to choose uprooting as a viable alternative to death. Even overlooking the fact that it would be one of the greatest human atrocities in the history of the world (the simultanious relocation of millions of people) it's just not feasable by sheer numbers, even with magical help. Furthermore even if it had happened there's not a lot of reason to believe the UCAS wouldn't have tried to take the lands back once the magical playing field was leveled a bit.

In short I always felt the fall of nations through extraterritoriality and the rise of the megacorps made a better story then geo-politically cutting north america in two big chunks on racial lines did. With a token "the south rose again".

As I understand it, white folk weren't forced to leave the new NAN states, but most chose to anyways rather than be discriminated against. And any relocation would have been comparable to the imprisonment of all the native american citizens in the United States. And with the NAN states taking a significant portion of the U.S. arsenal with it, plus the formation of the CAS, the UCAS was never in any position to seriously consider retaking the NAN states. After 25-30 years, there's no reason to think that the new NAN states wouldn't have been able to build a significant enough armed forces to defend their territory, if not project power. Plus, I still don't think the magical playing field is leveled now, let alone by 2050.

[LurkerOutThere]

As I understand it, white folk weren't forced to leave the new NAN states, but most chose to anyways rather than be discriminated against. And any relocation would have been comparable to the imprisonment of all the native american citizens in the United States. And with the NAN states taking a significant portion of the U.S. arsenal with it, plus the formation of the CAS, the UCAS was never in any position to seriously consider retaking the NAN states. After 25-30 years, there's no reason to think that the new NAN states wouldn't have been able to build a significant enough armed forces to defend their territory, if not project power. Plus, I still don't think the magical playing field is leveled now, let alone by 2050.

Disclamer: I will not now nor will I ever justify forced relocation of any peoples. Having said that there is a fair cry difference between the relocation of less then .01 percent of the populace of a nation (extrapolated from current US census figures) to the forced relocation of 50% of the nations population. It doesn't make any sense for a nation to succeed their arsenal or their land with that big of a population difference even with magic involved. To put in perspective even if tommorow the entire US population of Native American ancestry (of which I am one by the way before anyone gets too bent out of shape) showed up to fight the federal government they would still only have comporable numbers to the current standing military personnel. But even if we allowed that they have all this territory and nowhere near the population to utilize or hold it. With magic slipping closer to equality and fractures among the NAN it is actually extremely suprising to me that the UCAS never tried to even the score.

But that's never even going into why are nations still existing with so many of their population bases identifying as extraterritoriality based corps and corporate citizens not paying taxes.

[Warlordtheft]

Between extrateritorality, Vistas, elves and dwarves living together-well you get my point. Much of the official population figures don't takee into account sinless and corp citizens.

Basically the US disintegrated in light of the fact that it could not cope or adapt to the situation.

[Megu]

You realise that the alternative title for Target: Awakened Lands is Shadowrun Down Under, right?

OK, fair exception. And no, I don't have it, so again, might as well be armies of kangaroos and the drop bears and what have you.

[Critias]

Basically the US disintegrated in light of the fact that it could not cope or adapt to the situation.

Or, as I find more plausible, "the US crumbled because it couldn't hold up the weight of the plot being stacked atop it."

The end result, like much of Shadowrun, might not hold up to too-close scrutiny, but on the surface it's awesome and that's what counts.

[kzt]

I guess you can just not talk about the NAN's, but how can you just write them out of the metaplot? And I don't think they're any more stupid of an idea or poorly executed than the Tirs.

Well, yes, that is perfectly true.

[kzt]

As I understand it, white folk weren't forced to leave the new NAN states, but most chose to anyways rather than be discriminated against. And any relocation would have been comparable to the imprisonment of all the native american citizens in the United States.

Umm, right. There are 10,000 members of the the various Ute tribes, spread over SE Utah and SW Colorado. There are two million non-Utes in Utah. There are >4 million in Colorado.

They are going to do what? At 600:1 odds? Hell, there are 40 times as many Navajo, who never even got one word in the SR1 book at all IIRC.

Just pretend that they don't exist. At all.

[Mirilion]

Most of the "anglos" were just normal citizens. Most of the native americans were pissed off para militants with shamans and massive magical payloads. Most americans were taught since childhood to avoid violence and be passive, wait for the authorities to fix things. Violence is bad. They were not equipped to deal with what happened, even if they massively outnumbered the natives, specially since the authorities never even tried to fix much of anything.
I can see a small group of seriously powered up native americans watching long lines of relocated anglos, most walking scared, their husbands and young sons (probable combatants) probably dead. A small part of me thinks they deserve it, and another part remembers atrocities commited by europeans against jews over the centuries. Regardless, it's a powerful storyline, but I think 4th edition right now is about the COOL WHOA, and the darkness will come later. You can still read plenty of references to it in the fluff sections.

[the_real_elwood]

Umm, right. There are 10,000 members of the the various Ute tribes, spread over SE Utah and SW Colorado. There are two million non-Utes in Utah. There are >4 million in Colorado.

They are going to do what? At 600:1 odds? Hell, there are 40 times as many Navajo, who never even got one word in the SR1 book at all IIRC.

Just pretend that they don't exist. At all.

The names of the various NAN states doesn't mean that only those tribes are represented. I believe that traditionally, the Navajo tribes would fall in Pueblo nation territory. I don't remember why the NAN states got the names they did, but I always figured that they were pretty much all of the native population that existed in the United States at the time. Plus, there are plenty of anglos that stayed to run various things, depending on how receptive each nation was to anglos. I know there's more information about that in NAN vol. 1 and 2. But yes, you are right that the numbers don't quite jive, but still it's pretty much impossible to write the NAN out of Shadowrun.

[Ravor]

Personally I'm happy to see the NAN get quietly pushed aside, the very idea that the Great Ghost Dance could overthrow the countries of North America is simply too silly to suspend my disbelief. Even if you ignore the actual real-life status of Native Americans, in the fluff they were subjected to death camps so instead of robust warriors you have a bunch of starving mal-treated escaped prisoners.

Of course, I supose the fact that they had the backing of a Horror/Elf might keep them from outright being squashed by the military but it would hardly allow them to seize large portions of land.