NAN Fading, Has the NAN somehow faded into obscurity? Options

[Grinder]

I just want to stop this thread for a second:

Can we please get a round of applause for MODERN MEDICINE? - MODERN MEDICINE LADIES AND GENTLEMEN.

STABBED 119 TIMES.
LIVED.

MODERN MEDICINE.
Thank you.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/love.gif)

[CanadianWolverin...]

Depends on which version of the story we are talking about Grinder, in some of the timelines yes in others no. However no matter how you look at it you've still got the culture problem, if the NAN's population was made up of white folk with a drop of indian blood then their culture shouldn't be much different then it was beforehand if at all.

Hell I even fall under the "one drop rule" but it'd be a very cold day in hell before I'd go under the knife to fit in with the "ruling class" as had been suggested previously in this thread.


*EDIT*


Not that I agree that the indians would be able to remain as the "ruling class" for more than a few years at most even in the best case sceniro.

See, this doesn't make much sense to me after reading through what magic can do in Shadowrun verse. Magic was a freaking paradigm shift and these new (or balkanized) nations had it and others did not.

Yes, this probably makes one wonder why later in the SR verse places didn't try to take it back once they had it too, but by then I would say the NAN would have caught up to the rest in other tech capacity too. Toss in the rest of the crazy ass disasters SR verse gets smacked with and the only real "winners", if you can call it that, are the AAA corps that manage to survive the crashes. Hell, the AAA corps probably prefer the balkanized world and why Atzlan pisses them off because it is opposite of divide and conquer because it brought central americas together.

I see Wyoming and you should see British Columbia (BC) for me, so it is very likely your NAN is way different than my NAN and that makes perfect sense to me. Some NAN members failed, others did not, isn't that reasonable? Some integrated and assimilated, some jumped on the hate train and paid the price. Some were looking to get out from under the boot and build, others to seek revenge for that boot. If you think the NAN failed where you are at, so be it but please see that other places it would friggin thrive and there would be no going back to the UCAS.

[kzt]

If you think the NAN failed where you are at, so be it but please see that other places it would friggin thrive and there would be no going back to the UCAS.

You probably think that having the Illinois tribe kick out all the non-Indians out of Illinois would result in a successful economy for the state of Illinois.

[Ravor]

Sure, but the problem with saying that "it's magic" is that we have to ignore the fact that everyone's magic started working at the same time, remember in the Sixth World the ritual that you use doesn't really matter, it's the belief behing the mojo that works.


As I said in another thread, magic doesn't care if you are an indian shaman dancing around a fire, a hermantic mage pouring over ancient languages, scienctist unlocking the secrets of quanton foam, or a Star Wars geek using the power of The Force to crush his foes, it all works equally well provided that you've got the magus factor.

[Ascalaphus]

As I said in another thread, magic doesn't care if you are an indian shaman dancing around a fire, a hermantic mage pouring over ancient languages, scienctist unlocking the secrets of quanton foam, or a Star Wars geek using the power of The Force to crush his foes, it all works equally well provided that you've got the magus factor.

True, but that doesn't mean everyone began using it in an effective manner at the same time. To draw some historical comparisons: physics works the same for everyone, but some countries developed gunpowder sooner than the others. Any pre-modern state can build a propfessional army, but they didn't. Only when a few of them did, and had big successes did the other nations decided they had to have it too.

Big, old institutions tend to change slowly. An established army tends to be conservative; new ideas and tactics are risky. Generals tend not to risk using something they don't know would work. In WWII, the Blitzkrieg was opposed by most of the high military in Germany because noone thought it could work after WWI turned into trench warfare. It was a few younger officers that by chance got to show their plans to Hitler that came up with it.

Likewise, I think most generals would dismiss rumours of wizardry at first; if it hasn't been possible for the past millennia, why should it work now? They're not going to risk a promotion by taking "hippy bullshit" seriously.

On the other hand, small rebel groups can be more original. They already know conventional tactics won't sufice, so they're likely to try something new. Of course, the majority may fail, but the historians write mostly about the ones that succeed spectacularly...

I think there's something be said for the idea that all the hardship DHC went through may have helped him; lots of the Initiation feats require asceticism, suffering and difficult deeds. We tend to think that great suffering and great magical power go hand in hand.

[Sengir]

Sure, but the problem with saying that "it's magic" is that we have to ignore the fact that everyone's magic started working at the same time, remember in the Sixth World the ritual that you use doesn't really matter, it's the belief behing the mojo that works.

It will work somehow, but powerful stuff needs practice and knowledge. It's not like some newly awakened wizkid can kill LW because he believes he can (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
So while everybody's magic started working in 2011, the rest of the world could barely sling enough mojo to light a candle while the NAN had freakin magical nukes...and the willingness to use them when the government thought they could call the bluff.


Still, that does not explain why all the sudden there were enough Indians to populate two thirds of the US. And if there were so many of them, why how could they be a discriminated minority at the same time?

[Grinder]

Still, that does not explain why all the sudden there were enough Indians to populate two thirds of the US. And if there were so many of them, why how could they be a discriminated minority at the same time?

Because they counted everyone with a drop of Indian blood as Indian and not just the 100% pure Indians. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Sengir]

Because they counted everyone with a drop of Indian blood as Indian and not just the 100% pure Indians. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

See above, there are actually fewer people with mixed backgound than "pure" Indians. Or at least there are fewer people who define themselves as "partially Indian". Just like I don't define myself as "partially French" just because four generations ago there is some French guy in my family tree (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)


PS: But maybe that's what Howling Coyote did in the thee years he was gone...Daniel Friend-of-lonely-Housewife (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Grinder]

See above, there are actually fewer people with mixed backgound than "pure" Indians. Or at least there are fewer people who define themselves as "partially Indian". Just like I don't define myself as "partially French" just because four generations ago there is some French guy in my family tree (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

If the choice is "leave your home" or "embrace your 1/32 Indian heritage and stay" you might consider that again. That would at least give sort of an explanation for the populaton of the NAN (even though I like Daniel Friend-of-lonely-Housewife (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) ).

[kanislatrans]

PS: But maybe that's what Howling Coyote did in the thee years he was gone...Daniel Friend-of-lonely-Housewife (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

kinda makes sense...coyotes will breed with anything and can crossbreed with dogs or wolves...mythologically Grandfather Coyote is a Friskey devil...he is resposible for singing the first critters into existence... we may be on to something here... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Sengir]

If the choice is "leave your home" or "embrace your 1/32 Indian heritage and stay" you might consider that again.

Sure, many people would discover that the always liked the winners and secretly opposed the planned genocide all along. But I doubt the SAIM troops would have accepted all those sudden conversions and the fluff also says no. Looks like Dan's little coyote really worked overtime.

[Nath]

According to Wiki:

American Indian and Alaska Native
One race: 2.5 million are registered
In combination with one or more other races: 1.6 million are registered
1.37% of the US population

Figure here derived by subtracting figure for "One race (American Indian and Alaska Native)": 2,475,956, from figure for "Race alone or in combination with one or more other races (American Indian and Alaska Native)": 4,119,301, giving the result 1,643,345.

Plus about 1 millions natives in Canada, in Alberta, British Columbia, Manitoba, Northwest Territories, Nunavut, Ontario, Saskatchewan and Yukon, which should populate the Algonkian-Manitou, Tsimshian and parts of Aleut, Athabaskan and Salish-Shidhe. Also, TPA figures should includes 100,000 people from Iceland and Greenland, as well as a few Russians.

By contrast a rough calculation of the numbers from Shadowhelix:

Algonkian-Manitou Council: Population 5 million, 50% tribal -> 2.5 million
Athabaskan Council : Population 2.5 million, 22% tribal -> 0.55 million
Pueblo: 15.5 million, 66% -> 10 million
Salish-Shidhe: 8.5 million, 85% -> 7.2 million
Sioux: 6 million, no percentage given but I'll just assume 100 since IIRC they were not very friendly to Anglos -> 6 million
TPA: 1.5 million, 100% -> 1.5 million
Tsimshian: 1 million, 75% -> 750.000

So around 28.5 million indians, seven times as many as currently alive...that makes Hugh Hefner look prudish (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

According to Shadows of North America, 63% of Sioux 6.3M inhabitants have tribal affiliation (that's 4 millions). Also, 20% of SSC tribal population (1.48M out of 7.2M) are Cascade Ork and Sinsearach, who are metahumans refugees allowed to make up tribes.

So, to be precise, that's five times as many as currently alive.

Though it doesn't affect your calculation, it should be noted that the figure of 3.3M with 90% tribal affiliation given for the Ute Nation in SoNA (merged with the Pueblo above) fail to account for the Mormons population that stayed (those are around 1.6M nowadays). The figure is also off regarding Las Vegas, as I fail to imagine the place populated by less than 350,000 non natives.

[CanadianWolverin...]

True, but that doesn't mean everyone began using it in an effective manner at the same time. To draw some historical comparisons: physics works the same for everyone, but some countries developed gunpowder sooner than the others. Any pre-modern state can build a propfessional army, but they didn't. Only when a few of them did, and had big successes did the other nations decided they had to have it too.

Big, old institutions tend to change slowly. An established army tends to be conservative; new ideas and tactics are risky. Generals tend not to risk using something they don't know would work. In WWII, the Blitzkrieg was opposed by most of the high military in Germany because noone thought it could work after WWI turned into trench warfare. It was a few younger officers that by chance got to show their plans to Hitler that came up with it.

Likewise, I think most generals would dismiss rumours of wizardry at first; if it hasn't been possible for the past millennia, why should it work now? They're not going to risk a promotion by taking "hippy bullshit" seriously.

On the other hand, small rebel groups can be more original. They already know conventional tactics won't sufice, so they're likely to try something new. Of course, the majority may fail, but the historians write mostly about the ones that succeed spectacularly...

I think there's something be said for the idea that all the hardship DHC went through may have helped him; lots of the Initiation feats require asceticism, suffering and difficult deeds. We tend to think that great suffering and great magical power go hand in hand.

Thank you, that is exactly what I was trying to say.

Sure, many people would discover that the always liked the winners and secretly opposed the planned genocide all along. But I doubt the SAIM troops would have accepted all those sudden conversions and the fluff also says no. Looks like Dan's little coyote really worked overtime.

Er, was SAIM the only group operating? With flags now flying from Salish-Shidhe Council, Sioux Nation, Pueblo Corporate Council, Algonkian-Manitou Council, Athabaskan Council, Trans-Polal Aleut Nation and couple of failed states Ute and Tsimshian, that wasn't all just SAIM's doing, correct? Please refresh my memory, which of these areas did SAIM operate out of? Does SAIM still exist? DHC walked off and disappeared from the NAN, yes?

I bring this up because I am certain not everywhere held to the purist (I got with my cousin! I am certified Full Blooded Indian!) view of what a being a descendant of First North American Nations meant. Sure, we used to call mixes like Metis or what have you, now a days I notice various local tribes just accept that if you have had a kid or been a kid of the people with a perma tan in the past, you are one of them unless you are dealing with a racist, which surprisingly a lot of them from my corner of the world are not despite all the bullshit done against them.

[Ravor]

Uh-huh, you do realize that once gunpowder was shown to be effective in the Western World it spread rather quickly right? Magic stops being "hippy bullshit" and becomes a viable miliatary weapon in the eyes of the generals the moment one of their soldiers discovers that he can light campfires with his mind upon demand, albeit I seriously doubt that they would actually call it magic on paper. Hell, it doesn't even have to be a soldier, just a random citizen who decides to showcase his talent.


However with that said it's actually a moot point because as it is been covered time and time again, less than 1% of the NAN Armies were even capable of being Shamans in the first place so the overall impact of mojo in both the actual battles and the aftermath has been grossly overstated. Sure the Great Ghost Dance was an impressive show of force, but it really isn't anything more than the NAN launching a nuke, a nuke that they could only bluff about being able to launch again.

[Sengir]

Er, was SAIM the only group operating?

I jsut used the SAIM as a catch-all

I bring this up because I am certain not everywhere held to the purist (I got with my cousin! I am certified Full Blooded Indian!) view of what a being a descendant of First North American Nations meant. Sure, we used to call mixes like Metis or what have you, now a days I notice various local tribes just accept that if you have had a kid or been a kid of the people with a perma tan in the past, you are one of them.

We were talking about people with a single Indian great-great-something who suddenly discover that they have supported the poor Natives all along (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I mean the US was officially planning to exterminate all Indians, in full public view...does not sound like a good ground for "let's all be friends again".


@Ravor: Just like the US had no nukes left after the bombing of Nagasaki (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[CanadianWolverin...]

Uh-huh, you do realize that once gunpowder was shown to be effective in the Western World it spread rather quickly right?

May I have a citation, a wiki link at the very least? IIRC gunpowder was a Chinese invention long before it hit the "western" world but even then various explosive devices were available and not throughout history, greek fire comes to mind.

And lets carry the gunpowder analogy further, I would say the NAN shamans were sporting magical cannons even if you could find a few UCAS loyalists they would be sporting magical single shot muskets.

However with that said it's actually a moot point because as it is been covered time and time again, less than 1% of the NAN Armies were even capable of being Shamans in the first place so the overall impact of mojo in both the actual battles and the aftermath has been grossly overstated.

Pretty please with sugar on top, please humor me and cover it again for me with a citation/source, I am always hungry for details on the setting that lead to the rise of the NAN. Even if less than 1% of NAN forces were shamans, I still assert that would be enough to seriously hose UCAS because a magician or even an adept would be a serious force multiplier and a local population public relations boon to boot. I bet various warlords around the world would love to have SR magic on their side and yet they seem to do just fine causing trouble for others with the Lord of War hand-me-downs they purchase.

[CanadianWolverin...]

I jsut used the SAIM as a catch-all

Exactly. My point is the SAIM is a catch-all, it does not mean all the NAN agree with their every policy, though Ute seemed to ... but then, they failed. Speaking of which, DHC is disappeared and how has the longevity of the SAIM played out? I would argue that it was those who disagreed with DHC and others who were all for being pure traditional and race were the ones who survived to be the NAN of 2072 SR.

We were talking about people with a single Indian great-great-something who suddenly discover that they have supported the poor Natives all along (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I know what you meant and I am agreeing that there would actually a be a lot of people who would either find some distant ancient relative - though I would go with the marry the now rich first nations lady and have lots of pretty little boys and girls who I would teach all about how to whoop UCAS ass if they ever step out of line and come stomping around our villages, towns, cities, farms, rivers, mountains, oceans and sub-tropical rain forests. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I mean the US was officially planning to exterminate all Indians, in full public view...does not sound like a good ground for "let's all be friends again".

By US do you mean the US real history or the UCAS fictional camps? One, the other, or both, I actually see that very much as a good grounds to say fuck the UCAS, I would rather be Salish-Sahidhe (Ucluelet FN - Malnuth). Hell, I see the residential schools and lack of funding for the municipalities that are reserves as good grounds to say fuck Ottawa, let's all be friends locally. What is good for my family, friends, and neighbors is good for me.

Klecko, Choo.

[Whipstitch]

May I have a citation, a wiki link at the very least? IIRC gunpowder was a Chinese invention long before it hit the "western" world but even then various explosive devices were available and not throughout history, greek fire comes to mind.

There's a difference between discovering something and implementing something. Moreover, there's a difference between implementing something and implementing it so effectively that the techniques must indisputably be adopted by other cultures lest they fall behind the technological curve. Explosive devices were in use for quite a long time, and cannon was becoming a pretty common feature of east asia. But frankly, the Europeans took black powder to a whole new level when they developed the corning process and came up with other ways of standardizing the potency of a given measure. Up until then, black powder was something everyone vaguely knew about but had never really been used to its full potential. Uniformity changed that, and once the genie was out of the bottle cannon became standard equipment rather quickly.

[Sengir]

By US do you mean the US real history or the UCAS fictional camps?

The fictional ones, which were planned with all the standard legal procedure, in public and with the clearly stated intent to kill all Indians. Heck, that's something not even Hitler dared...

One, the other, or both, I actually see that very much as a good grounds to say fuck the UCAS, I would rather be Salish-Sahidhe (Ucluelet FN - Malnuth).

Yep, but also fuck everybody who sided with the government and now claims to have supported the SAIM (again as a catch-all) all along. Not "hi everyone, welcome to our tribe"

[LurkerOutThere]

Just a quick point out. Per dragons of the sixth world the UCAS powers did have some magical assets during the Ghost Dancve war as that was how the spirit of denver was originally split. So in fact both sides did have some magical talent pool to draw on.

Where is it stated that the purpose of the camps was to cause genocide?

[Sengir]

4th Ed sourcebook

The Native American Nations formed in 2018 with the
Treaty of Denver—a conciliatory gesture by the United States
and Canadian governments following a protracted guerrilla war
with Native American forces led by Daniel Howling Coyote
(remember him?). The U.S.-Canadian forces tried to pass the
Resolution Act that would have exterminated all the Amerindian
tribes for good, but needless to say the Natives were having none
of that.

The timeline from shadowrun4.com goes into a bit more detail:

The NAN conflict swiftly degenerated into a debacle for the U.S. government, which reacted with pred-ictable harshness. President Garrety was no friend to the Native Americans, and his successor was even worse. In 2016, a no-hoper named William Springer cacked Garrety and cleared the way for his veep, William Jarman, to park his butt in the Big Chair. Jarman celebrated his unexpected accession to high office by issuing the now-infamous Executive Order 17-321, calling for the extermination of all Native American tribes. One month later, Congress gleefully ratified the order with the Resolution Act of 2016. The battle lines were drawn, leaving not so much as a scrap of hope for a peaceful settlement.

[LurkerOutThere]

Ok another retcon, if that is the case why wern't the camps more successful if the stated goal is to wipe people out, and you've already got them in one place how hard is that? How did Howling Coyote escape if his entire bvisit should have been 2 minuetes of check in and then thirts seconds of "up against the wall"

Yet enough people broke out of the camps to form the core of the GDW armies. How does that work.

[Sengir]

The Genocide was never carried out in the first place, I think you are confusing this part with the internment camps like the one DHC walked out.

Order of events:
- Lone Eagle Incident, people are pissed and the gotv reacts with...
- ...Internment for SAIM members and everybody who somehow comes under suspicion
- Daniel whatshisname becomes Daniel Howling Coyote and simply walks out of "his" camp
- DHC starts the war against the US in earnest with the destruction of Los Alamos, his demand is that all Anglos get out of the land he and his followers claim
- William Jarman decides to solve the problem once and for all and plans for Holocaust II
- The Great Ghost Dance shows who has more Bang and stops the extermination plans at the eleventh hour

[Ravor]

Hmm let's see here....

CanadianWolverine, you should know by now that I'm not going to bother to give you a cite, especially over something as easy as the spread of gunpowder throughout the Western World, hell I wouldn't even go as far in explaining my point as Whipstitch did.

As for a citation on the number of Awakened NAN, the closest I'm going to come is point you to the minor fact that the only years we have numbers for; 2050-70 tells us that only 1% of the population is Awakened (And not all of that 1% are full Mages/Adepts as all of the various minor talents count towards the limit as well.) so given the fact that the Mana Levels were lower during the NAN Wars the 1% figure is quite frankly probably overstating the number of Awakened.

Yeah, I do happen to agree that magic is an excellent force multiplier, however the problem is that it isn't nearly enough to actually win given the numbers game and full fledged Mages are rare enough that everytime you lose one you've just suffered a grievous blow that can't be replaced. So even if I agreed with your "Magical Brave" theory that the poor white people were unable to get their mojo working properly it still doesn't change things as magic simply isn't a war winner and you most certainly can't control a hostile population that vastly outnumbers you after the war is over.

[Ascalaphus]

I dislike the "magical brave" idea as much as anyone. But I think it's fair to think that if you're being persecuted, you develop combat magic fast.

Early Hermetic "wizards" were likely people with comfortable jobs and a harmless hobby. RL hermeticism is a lot about expanding your consciousness without expecting real physical results. These people aren't likely to be ahead of the curve in combat magic, nor likely to be taken very seriously for a while. The original practitioners when 2011 came around weren't doing it for vast power, because until then it didn't have any noticeable power.

Hermeticism then became big bussiness because Western powers wanted the power the natives had, but in a controlled, scientific fashion - and hermeticism offered that possibility.

As for believing in the Force: I don't buy that. I think Spellcasting and such represent actual arcane knowledge and skill based on a Tradition. These practices are based on trial and error, not just fanboy belief.
"The Force" is a nice concept for a Tradition, but not in the early years; only after people with Magic spend decades experimenting and reinventing the wheel would they achieve things that other wizards looked up in an old book.

I think that SR is not Mage:The Ascension. It's not true that all magical theories are all equally fundamentally true. The Traditions on offer are "survivors", better than other theories that were discarded. And research is ongoing. While self-confidence (Willpower) is important for wizards, it's not about Belief, it's about having Magic.