NAN Fading, Has the NAN somehow faded into obscurity? Options

[Traul]

... or they might go "OK, Howling Coyote might kill a whole lot of people, and if we give in he most likely take everything! Kill them all and let God sort 'em out. Nuclear Weapons are hereby authorized." Yes the US might kill a whole lot of innocent people, but compared to what might happened... a whole lot more agreeable.

Don't forget the NAN have already proved the efficiency of their anti-aerial defense system by the time. Rockets and air strikes are not an option anymore. How to deliver the nukes then?

[Saint Sithney]

They could never use nuclear weapons. If they did, it would ruin international relations forever. The most likely weapon used against a confirmed target would be the "Rods from God" orbital kinetic bombardment weapons. Basically, they're giant tungsten rods the size of phone poles with a special endcaps made to resist the heat of reentry. They're dropped from orbit and land on a target with all the force of an atomic bomb, but without any of the mess or any warning. Complete first strike capability on hardened targets.

But we're still getting too anchored in reality here. We're talking instead about a world where there is a blatant corporate oligarchy running the US government. There is no ideology in an oligarchy besides profit and loss. A corporate controlled congress would never allow a direct attack to be made if the natives still had the ability to cause a supervolcanic eruption under yellowstone national park which would cover the entire earth with ash for 40 years. There is no profit in suicide, so there is no obvious action they can take. They'd be forced to chalk it up as a loss and tend to what they can.

Oh, and Lurker, the Japanese surrender in WWII was unconditional. Unconditional surrender means that, we could have told them to swim to China if we wanted. They had been trying to surrender with conditions for nearly a year, but we wouldn't accept any agreement which allowed the emperor to remain in command.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

They could never use nuclear weapons. If they did, it would ruin international relations forever. The most likely weapon used against a confirmed target would be the "Rods from God" orbital kinetic bombardment weapons. Basically, they're giant tungsten rods the size of phone poles with a special endcaps made to resist the heat of reentry. They're dropped from orbit and land on a target with all the force of an atomic bomb, but without any of the mess or any warning. Complete first strike capability on hardened targets.

You mean Thor Shots, right? I don't know if this level of technology was already available during the 2010's of shadowrun timeline.

[LurkerOutThere]

But the context of the question was not about whether the Indians standing together would be opposed. It was a question about whether there would be cooperation among them enough to make a stand. It asked when was the last time anyone saw such a thing. I saw such a thing this summer.

Actually no the context of the question was in regards to numbers nothing more nothing less it was an ironic twist of a question posted by JohnathanC over int he rediculous Shoah thread. My point is, and continues to be that the NAN forces were comprised entirely of people of Native American descent who's stated goal was to evict all non whites from their lands and used staggering terroristic effects to achieve their goals. Later both cronologically and retcon wise the NAN's tone softened but my point is at the time of the uprising the NAN's max fighting force based on real world census figures, assuming none died in VITAS, assuming none died in and the camps, and assuming every single person of Native American descent in the United States joined the movement and was an effective fighter would be right around 1% of the population as a whole (and that is factoring in vitas, based on the last census figures Native American blooded persons make up about .96 percent of the population. So in essence for the scenario to have a chance to work, every single NA has to be a magical indian brave fully commited to the path of wiping out all anglos for them to even bring a like sized fighting force to the table. Then everyone in the US government (and to a lesser extent) needs to go full bore retard in VERY SPECIFIC ways for the treaty of denver to get signed in the way it does.

kigmatzomat did more to convince me then anyone else here. Unfortunately the chain of probability is rediculously weak, and I think the game as a whole would be better moving away from it. But then again as I've stated I'm not very attached to the NAN for personal and ethical reasons I think the story of the national powers weakening and falling into decay can be told just fine without magical indian braves and immortal elves.

[Not of this Worl...]

You do realize that the ten year limit you so boldly written for me only makes the NAN less likely to survive right?

I recall the Arab governments thought the same things about the Israelis after 19 years and got their collective butts kicked.
In the time afterward the NAN is building and getting stronger. Developing conventional militaries to go along with their significant magical muscle and the UCAS is losing a lot of major military installations. Meanwhile the UCAS is taking a beating as others already described.

But I think the protests against the NANs are starting to sound a little comical.

[Traul]

The most likely weapon used against a confirmed target would be the "Rods from God" orbital kinetic bombardment weapons. Basically, they're giant tungsten rods the size of phone poles with a special endcaps made to resist the heat of reentry. They're dropped from orbit and land on a target with all the force of an atomic bomb, but without any of the mess or any warning. Complete first strike capability on hardened targets.

When did those babies appear? Corps have them in the 60s, but did they already exist in 2018?

[kigmatzomat]

Now before you poo-poo my nukes idea, the Indians will have gathering points. If you have collateral damage... explain it away as such: "We had intel that the terrorist who just killed 18,000 people were located in this area and they were just about to launch another attack. We responded in due haste to eliminate these terrorist."

Nukes are bad to use against targets that a) are close to you and b) where you don't have good targeting data.

We know the NAN is good at not being found by their success during the covert war. So the military will need to hit largish areas. Lets be reasonable and confine the NAN targets to 20 mile radiuses. That's 1200 square miles a target. Say 3 NAN bases as targets for 3600 square miles to be nuked. You need something like a dozen 150kTon warheads per target to be sure of hard kill since the NAn may literally be dug in. For 3 targets that's nearly 5 Megatons of nuclear bombing.

Now you need to deal with 3 fires, each 40 miles in diameter, each covering 768,000 acres of devastation, with circumferences of 130 miles. Oh, but its radioactive. Assume a decent standoff airburst with minimal fallout, you probably have to wait a mere 72 hours to fight the blazes. At 1mph that moves the windward side 72 miles east for a fire wall more than 250 miles in circumference.

Per target site.

After you've dealt with the massive fires, you have to consider the radiation effect on the water supply. Did you hit the Colorado and poison southern California? How about the Snake and take out the northwest? Pray they aren't all on tributaries of the Missouri which would poison the water all the way to the Gulf of Mexico.

Even if the water doesn't glow, odds are the sudden bulldozing of nearly a million acres plus a subsequent burn zone comprising another two million acres will fubar the drainage and silt the crap out of the rivers. Hello fish kill and lack of potability.

And for reference. you'd get similar results with conventional bombs. See "dresden fire bombing" for a historical example.

Now lets consider the impacts of 5 megatons of EMP. Any electrical or telephone grids in the area will short out from the pulse as their cables become big antennas. Communication satellites aimed at the region will have their receivers fry. The ionosphere's going to be lit up, which is good for radio, bad for surviving sat links.

This is why the military, no military, has bothered with nukes. There's no job one nuke can do that a flight of bombers can't achieve with conventional munitions. The destruction of multiple nukes is so high that you only use them waaaay over there, when you want to destroy huge swaths of the earth and evryone who lives there. And I do mean every single person, infant to elder.

For anything less, use conventional munitions.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Assuming that the USA had nearly 300 millions during the 2000's, roughly 3 millions would be native americans. Yet, the First and Second States of 18th century France sumed 500k people ruling over 22 millions. And yes, I know that these people eventually revolted. But it took a lot of abuse before rampaging the Bastilla.

The terms of the Treaty of Denver are as follows:

* To cede lands covering most of the western North America to the Native American Nations for purposes of forming their own independent nations.
* To establish and recognize from this point forward the legitimacy of the Native American Nations; specifically the Sioux Nation, the Pueblo Council, the Salish Council, the Ute Nation, the Trans-Polar Aleut Nation, and the Tsimshian Nation.
* To establish the Sovereign Tribal Council as the international ruling body for the Native American Nations collectively, along with the duties and responsibilities entrusted to said Council.
* To relocate and remove over the course of ten years all United States and Canadian citizens not eligible for NAN citizenship from the lands ceded to the Native American Nations.
* To establish reserved lands within the Native American Nations for the residence of those people who wish to remain in NAN territory but who are not eligible for citizenship at this time.
* To establish Seattle as an extraterritorial extension of the United States of America with the exception of Mercer Island, which is ceded from this point forward to the Salish Council and renamed Council Island, for the purpose of establishing embassies to the US from the Native American Nations.
* To establish the Council of Denver as a body designated to oversee the implementation of thise treaty and to govern the city of Denver, hereafter called the Front Range Free Zone, and to divide control of the Front Range Free Zone among the signatories who share interests in that area; specifically, Aztlan, the Pueblo Council, the Sioux Nation, the United States, and the Ute Nation.

If this was retconed later I don't know, I'm not american so I don't know how the western and mid-western people woud feel about this. But someone mentioned them being suspicious of the federal government. It is possible that during the civil war, while the corporations were taking over control of the federal government, a lot of them might have allied with the NAN.
Also, around 2021 when Goblinization happened and most of the UGE-born were considered adults, many of them asked for residence in NAN territory, feeling that they would be less prejudiced. By the time the UCAS could have achieved the manpower and magical power to retake the lost territory, the CAS and California secede.

[Saint Sithney]

When did those babies appear? Corps have them in the 60s, but did they already exist in 2018?

They've been working on getting them in orbit since 2005 I think. I doubt they'll see much use though since each one costs probably 15 million dollars. Still, being able to strike a hardened target 15 minutes after acquisition is pretty boss.

[Ravor]

Brazilian_Shinobi let me put it to you this way, the "midwest" is some of the stauntest "pro-American" areas of the country. Now understand that "pro-American" is not the same thing as "pro-government" but I know how my neighbors would react to a bunch of Nazis wearing feathers. Nevermind the fact that those same areas are highly armed so we aren't talking about a bunch of unarmed city slickers.

[Link]

My point is, and continues to be that the NAN forces were comprised entirely of people of Native American descent who's stated goal was to evict all non whites from their lands and used staggering terroristic effects to achieve their goals.

It's established in 1st edition that the forces of the NAN were not composed solely of native americans.

[LurkerOutThere]

Which is flat contradicted elsewhere in second, third and fourth editions and even other places in first. Furthermore the SAIM was all about evicting or killing all non NA peoples.

[Not of this Worl...]

It's established in 1st edition that the forces of the NAN were not composed solely of native americans.

It is in several other books as well that whites were allowed to remain. B_S already covered some of it:

To relocate and remove over the course of ten years all United States and Canadian citizens not eligible for NAN citizenship from the lands ceded to the Native American Nations.
To establish reserved lands within the Native American Nations for the residence of those people who wish to remain in NAN territory but who are not eligible for citizenship at this time.

Large significant groups are allowed to stay. NAN1 brought up Pinkskin tribes, reservations around Boise, Salt Lake City, and elsewhere. Also bear in mind their definition of Tribal didn't mean belonging to a registered tribe but just having tribal blood so it would include a lot of people who might only be 1/16th Native and are living in those midwestern areas. Contrary to what the poster before me said, SR3 with SONA "brought in" more non-natives in SSC and PCC.

Yes, I know there are places in the states way to racist and unaccepting of Native Americans. There are lots of other places in Western States where most people wouldn't mind a Native government at all. It just kind of depends on what the local prejudices are.

[Ascalaphus]

I can imagine a NAN-sympathizer movement claiming that the NAN represents "true America" much more than corrupt, corporate-slave congress does. Not everyone would agree, but some would.

[Saint Sithney]

Not everyone would agree, but some would.

Jingoism doesn't see sense. To a jingoist, the USA is a flag, not a people united by ideology.

Those are the people who would create a problem, and like Ravor points out, there's a lot of those types round that part of the country.

[Tachi]

1. The whole "land grab" where national parks, government owned resources, and indian lands being handed over to the corps is a clear sign that the "politicians" are neither patriots nor honorable. These are bought men and women with essentially no loyalty or allegiance to their constituency. Money is their only friend.

That's actually a fairly accurate depiction of American politicians now... Does anyone here know why American politicians are considered some of the most honest in the world? It's because once they're bought, they stay bought.

Brazilian_Shinobi let me put it to you this way, the "midwest" is some of the stauntest "pro-American" areas of the country. Now understand that "pro-American" is not the same thing as "pro-government" but I know how my neighbors would react to a bunch of Nazis wearing feathers. Nevermind the fact that those same areas are highly armed so we aren't talking about a bunch of unarmed city slickers.

QFT... and then some.

Jingoism doesn't see sense. To a jingoist, the USA is a flag, not a people united by ideology.

Those are the people who would create a problem, and like Ravor points out, there's a lot of those types round that country.

Jingoist? Are you gonna call us redneck myrmidons next?

Despite the European belief to the contrary, being proud of your country is not a bad thing. Patriotism is not one of the opiates of the masses, though consensus, collectivism (group responsibility) and deconstructionism are. We jingoistic Midwesterners are some of the only ones left in the U.S. that still see America as a haven for the individualist. We're believers in individual responsibility and self-determination, worshipers at the throne of "Every Man a King" (though Huey Long was often a despicable person) sneering at political correctness and anyone who considers themselves part of the governing elite.

We're some of the few still clinging to the raft built by our founding fathers while the rest of the world (i.e. people like you), and some of our own, are busy untying the ropes. All for our own good of course.

America is not a flag, nor is it a people united by anything. It is an idea. That idea is that a man can make his own decisions, chart his own path, handle his own responsibilities, and defend his own freedoms... Alone if necessary, and absolutely without help from the guberment.

And, just because my religious icon has stars and stripes, and my holy writ starts out "We the People", doesn't mean I'm either stupid, ignorant or gullible.

So, if you're so ignorant of the true nature of us "jingoists" that you have to use generalities when talking about us, you might want to keep that unwarranted pseudo-intellectual sneer out of your posts.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Ok people, I'm sorry if I offended anyone. It was not my intention to poke the jaguar.
Fair enough, the mid-western people would not accept meekly being removed from their homes. Mass Mind Trick, then?
"This is not the land you are looking for" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

That's actually a fairly accurate depiction of American politicians now... Does anyone here know why American politicians are considered some of the most honest in the world? It's because once they're bought, they stay bought.

They must have learned with the brazilians politicians and improved their lessons.

[Ravor]

Then you've got to explain why there weren't mass revolts the moment that the mindrape wore off, or introduce permament mindrape magic into Shadowrun as well as allow ritual magic to effect large crowds without a "real link" to each indivual.

[pbangarth]

Despite the European belief to the contrary, being proud of your country is not a bad thing. Patriotism is not one of the opiates of the masses, though consensus, collectivism (group responsibility) and deconstructionism are. We jingoistic Midwesterners are some of the only ones left in the U.S. that still see America as a haven for the individualist. We're believers in individual responsibility and self-determination, worshipers at the throne of "Every Man a King" (though Huey Long was often a despicable person) sneering at political correctness and anyone who considers themselves part of the governing elite.

We're some of the few still clinging to the raft built by our founding fathers while the rest of the world (i.e. people like you), and some of our own, are busy untying the ropes. All for our own good of course.

America is not a flag, nor is it a people united by anything. It is an idea. That idea is that a man can make his own decisions, chart his own path, handle his own responsibilities, and defend his own freedoms... Alone if necessary, and absolutely without help from the guberment.

And, just because my religious icon has stars and stripes, and my holy writ starts out "We the People", doesn't mean I'm either stupid, ignorant or gullible.

So, if you're so ignorant of the true nature of us "jingoists" that you have to use generalities when talking about us, you might want to keep that unwarranted pseudo-intellectual sneer out of your posts.

Tachi, I agree with you wholeheartedly that judging others through generalities is not a good thing. Don't you think, in retrospect, that your own diatribe above has a few generalities of its own?

[Ravor]

Not when compared to the other side, no I think Tachi was well within his rights and was fairly reasonable.

[Warlordtheft]

Well my perpective is that in general, the Westen Europeans view us as arrogant, and meddlesome. The eastern Europeans (who were under the Soviet rule from 1945-1989) view us in a slightly better light. While many Americans view the Western Europeans as timid, uncooperative, and prone to stalling. That being said-what one percieves to be reality is not necessarily reality.

... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/extinguish.gif)

Also to consider, the flyover states have less population density than California, and the east coast. So you would have to look at the % of native americans and their Anglo supports on a more local basis than on a national basis. This would explain why denver, seattle and the Anglo reservations (Salt Lake, Boise) were created.

[Saint Sithney]

Jingoist? Are you gonna call us redneck myrmidons next?

Do you fit the definition of a jingoist? No? Then I wasn't talking about you. I was talking about jingoists. They do exist and in number.

Fact is, the government which is presented in the literature is a completely criminal government which has sold the country out from under the people in order to create a state of perpetual national slavery. They've shat all over the Constitution, the people, and the environment and obliterated national sovereignty in a way which could only be rectified by revolution. There is no USA to believe in anymore.

It's really not that hard to believe that someone who actually believes in America might find the Native uprising as a decent chance to try and throw off the illegal government in order to refresh the liberty of the USA. The retcon completely implies that. And, besides, even in the original text, they still kept most of the major cities under anglo control as "reservations" and such where the people who lived there were allowed to govern themselves. I really don't believe in the "Nazis with feathers" business that people are spewing. The text really doesn't support it.

edt: Also, don't think that there are farmers losing their land or anything like that. Thanks to the imminent domain laws outlined in the literature, all those people would have been kicked off their land by agrobusiness by then.

[Tachi]

Please excuse the following 'wall-o-text'. It couldn't be helped.

Ok people, I'm sorry if I offended anyone. It was not my intention to poke the jaguar.
Fair enough, the mid-western people would not accept meekly being removed from their homes. Mass Mind Trick, then?
"This is not the land you are looking for" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

This is not the land we are looking for. Move along. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Tachi, I agree with you wholeheartedly that judging others through generalities is not a good thing. Don't you think, in retrospect, that your own diatribe above has a few generalities of its own?

Yeah, you're right, that crack about Europe was just slightly over the line. Especially since I personally know quite a few Europeans that are good people.

Well my perpective is that in general, the Westen Europeans view us as arrogant, and meddlesome. The eastern Europeans (who were under the Soviet rule from 1945-1989) view us in a slightly better light. While many Americans view the Western Europeans as timid, uncooperative, and prone to stalling. That being said-what one percieves to be reality is not necessarily reality.

... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/extinguish.gif)

Personally, I think the main source of friction between Europe and the U.S. is that Europe prefers the roundabout approach, whereas Americans prefer the direct approach. This is often exacerbated by the fact that when we look at each other, we often find that we're looking in a mirror.

Do you fit the definition of a jingoist? No? Then I wasn't talking about you. I was talking about jingoists. They do exist and in number.

jingo: a person who professes his or her patriotism loudly and excessively, favoring vigilant preparedness for war and an aggressive foreign policy. One who vociferously supports one's country.

jingoism: Extreme and emotional nationalism.

nationalism: devotion and loyalty to one's own nation; patriotism. The policy or doctrine of asserting the interests of one's own nation, viewed as separate from the interests of other nations.

You did notice the part where I said, "my religious icon has stars and stripes, and my holy writ starts out "We the People,"' right? I was not being facetious. I was, in fact, completely serious. So, yes, I am a "jingo", and you were talking about me in a way that carried many negative connotations.

[Whipstitch]

The problem people find with jingoists is that many of them expect people to write the government a blank check in regards to aggressive foreign policy. As a voter, that seems like an abdication of responsibility to me. Trying to appeal to me on an emotional, patriotic level about such important matters hits me as immediately suspect. Given Europe's brushes with fascism in the past, I have a hard time judging them too harshly when it comes to some of their misgivings.

[Sengir]

@kigmatzomat, you forget that the US might go "Oh No! Howling Coyote can kill a whole lot more people! Let's give in!"

... or they might go "OK, Howling Coyote might kill a whole lot of people, and if we give in he most likely take everything! Kill them all and let God sort 'em out. Nuclear Weapons are hereby authorized."

...in which case the Russians would go "early warning sats X, Y and Z show infrared signatures consistent with massive US missile launch, SIGINT reports traffic spike on all military frequencies. Alert the Strategic Rocket Forces". Firing nukes at anyone is a baaad idea