NAN Fading, Has the NAN somehow faded into obscurity? Options

[kigmatzomat]

Brazilian_Shinobi let me put it to you this way, the "midwest" is some of the stauntest "pro-American" areas of the country. Now understand that "pro-American" is not the same thing as "pro-government" but I know how my neighbors would react to a bunch of Nazis wearing feathers.

So how would those Pro-Americans react when nazis wearing suits and ties come to kick neighbors and townsfolk off lands they've inhabited for a century? Where was there disgust at the way american citizens had land and property turned over to big companies?

Because they came for the red man's homes long before the SAIM incident.

So either in SR the jingo americans didn't have the guts to pitch in when The Gov'ment came to toss locals out on the street or they joined SAIM early on and were the foundation of the Pinkskin tribes.

[LurkerOutThere]

Do you fit the definition of a jingoist? No? Then I wasn't talking about you. I was talking about jingoists. They do exist and in number.

That word, I do not think it means what you think it means.

Fact is, the government which is presented in the literature is a completely criminal government which has sold the country out from under the people in order to create a state of perpetual national slavery. They've shat all over the Constitution, the people, and the environment and obliterated national sovereignty in a way which could only be rectified by revolution. There is no USA to believe in anymore.

Setting aside for a moment my belief that all government is at best a necissary evil. I will never believe that an "illegal" or "immoral" government can exist without some level of consent of it's people. That is always the problem with the shadowrun backstory, especially in regards to the NAN. These extermination acts and other nonsense supposedly passed entirely by the evil government actions yet the NAN and their own evil empire leanings supposedly experienced a groundswell of popular support, even though they were basically founded on the superiorirty of native american blood. This brings me back to my Nazi parallel. One story or the other works, not both.

It's really not that hard to believe that someone who actually believes in America might find the Native uprising as a decent chance to try and throw off the illegal government in order to refresh the liberty of the USA. The retcon completely implies that. And, besides, even in the original text, they still kept most of the major cities under anglo control as "reservations" and such where the people who lived there were allowed to govern themselves. I really don't believe in the "Nazis with feathers" business that people are spewing. The text really doesn't support it.

You can not believe it all you want it is exactly as depicted, 20k non-native american's were killed at Los Alamos, the NAN is devoted to ghettoizing the Anglos with the reservations and forcibly deporting them from their lands. Now outside of karmic absolution that is no different from parallels to the real world third reich.

edt: Also, don't think that there are farmers losing their land or anything like that. Thanks to the imminent domain laws outlined in the literature, all those people would have been kicked off their land by agrobusiness by then.

But you can't prove that can you? You can only work with what exists in the literature, which is the NAN uprooted the entirety of non NAN people's from their lands and either sent them to approved reservations (I guess people already living in those reservations lucked out, provided their Feather Wearing Masters didn't re-oproriate their lands as well.

In other words, I'm more prepared to accept that the nation as a whole, as a collection of people might loose control of their government through corruption nd graft and dissolution, a democracy is always in danger of that,, I understand that, you get the government you deserve is practically taught in our schools. However I am not prepared to accept that the "magical indian braves" who rose up on a position of racial superiority would be accepted as benevolent feather wearing master race by the the other 99% of the population especially when said indian nazi's tactics, doctrine, and beliefs as stated in the literature completely contradict that view. The only way it could happy is through extensive handwavium (not even the magic kind) and multiple retcons.

[LurkerOutThere]

...in which case the Russians would go "early warning sats X, Y and Z show infrared signatures consistent with massive US missile launch, SIGINT reports traffic spike on all military frequencies. Alert the Strategic Rocket Forces". Firing nukes at anyone is a baaad idea

Try again, Lone Eagle didn't cause the end of the world, so your exact scenario didn't come to pass. If the russians didn't AAAAH MOTHERLAND! when a nuclear missile was actually headed towards them I do not see why this scenario would play out. Furthermore to take out a a suspected nan-enampment you don't need an ICBM. It's only with OMNISIENT SUPERMAGIC that ever military assett in the country can be locked down. A cruise missile is a fire and forget missile launchable from the roof of a hum-vee that can travel hundreds of miles depending on type and payload.

[Sengir]

Try again, Lone Eagle didn't cause the end of the world, so your exact scenario didn't come to pass.

And I sincerely doubt that people were all too trigger-happy after that near death experience with a single missile (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Furthermore to take out a a suspected nan-enampment you don't need an ICBM.

You don't need nukes at all, which is what I was trying to say: Nobody will open the green-glowing can of atomic mutant worms to take out a puny guerilla base, so a US government throwing nukes left and right would not be a more sensible than DHC and his magic army out of nowhere.

[Ravor]

kigmatzomat well it depends on whether or not you are talking about the government stomping on the rights of the indians or if you are claiming that the government started kicking down doors outside the rezes because you'll get very different answers for each situation.

[Traul]

You can not believe it all you want it is exactly as depicted, 20k non-native american's were killed at Los Alamos, the NAN is devoted to ghettoizing the Anglos with the reservations and forcibly deporting them from their lands. Now outside of karmic absolution that is no different from parallels to the real world third reich.

You don't know what you are talking about. The NAN are fighting for land. This has a long history all over the world, from the Viking invading England to the Israel-Palestine conflict through the most important XIXth century indian wars. Would you say your own country was founded by Nazis?

The Nazis were different in that the extermination of the Untermenschen was a goal, not a mean. The Jew and the Rom have never posed any strategic threat to anybody in Europe. The Nazi could have taken over Poland without parking the Jew in the Warsaw ghetto. The NAN cannot claim back their land without getting rid of those who stole it from them, as well as the US immigrants could not settle in the west without getting rid of the native first.

[CanadianWolverin...]

Setting aside for a moment my belief that all government is at best a necissary evil. I will never believe that an "illegal" or "immoral" government can exist without some level of consent of it's people. That is always the problem with the shadowrun backstory, especially in regards to the NAN. These extermination acts and other nonsense supposedly passed entirely by the evil government actions yet the NAN and their own evil empire leanings supposedly experienced a groundswell of popular support, even though they were basically founded on the superiorirty of native american blood. This brings me back to my Nazi parallel. One story or the other works, not both.

Er... This statement doesn't make much sense to me, don't the USA and Canada have both (and multiples) on a regular basis everytime we have an election, pull out a map and paint some ridings one color or another? Approval of this or that can be regional and we often seem to make up specific names for blocks of trends in the voting. And then throw in a recent President/Vice President having some abysmally low approval ratings according to this or that non-election poll and a record that screams impeachment, yet no such thing happened or will.

Why wouldn't it be possible that a simplification of that section of SR's history would be that western north america was a majority/active vocal minority "Go NAN, go!" and the eastern side was "Go UCAS, go!" majority/active vocal minority. Heck, break it down even further, some places would be "Fracking FN terrorists running the place!" and others would be "Sweet, fuck the nazi UCAS, we should have tossed them out years ago!" Didn't the Ute end up a failed state? Maybe there wasn't really that much of a ground swell there after all.

And on top of that, wouldn't actually seeing your NAN family, friends, and neighbors getting screwed locally make national propaganda just slightly less effective? Given that, I could totally see eastern citizens who don't have things they can use their own six senses on (thanks to putting eastern FN in camps and slaughtering them in wars in real US history, so their aren't local FN to be family, friends, and neighbors with anymore) much more likely to believe the terrorist label.

[kigmatzomat]

kigmatzomat well it depends on whether or not you are talking about the government stomping on the rights of the indians or if you are claiming that the government started kicking down doors outside the rezes because you'll get very different answers for each situation.

So to paraphrase, "I did not speak up when they came for the indians' land because I was not an indian"?
And I suspect that fighting back when other people tae your land cause they have power makes you a provisional member of SAIM.

As for the scope, are you aware how much federal land is in the western states? Something like 250 million acres of federal land is leased for grazing.

According to some quick web fu on my cellphone, the federal lands (parks, reserves, military bases, reservations) as percentage of total area by western state is:
nevada 85%
alaska 69%
utah 57%
oregon 53%
idaho 50%
arizona 48%
california 45%
wyoming 42%
new mexico 41%
colorado 36%

That is what gets taken in the rush. Ranchers are thrown off grazing lands the same as Indians. The military lands are the only possible exceptions.

[Ravor]

*Shrugs* Never said it was right, but that is the way things are because of the rezes, I wasn't kidding when I spectulated whether or not forced assemiation all those years ago would have been a better option by now. As for the federal lands getting siezed in the resource rush, yeah, that wouldn't be popular at all but until the feds started knocking on doors and kicking families off of their lands you wouldn't get more than grumbling.

[kigmatzomat]

See, that assessment is the reason why you think the NAN doesn't make sense while I think it does.

To me, all the true american patriots, loyal to the ideals of America, would speak out against The Revenuers taking away people- rightfullt held lands and wind up lumped in with SAIM by the corp-military, ultimately becoming the pink skins.

To you, the patriotic types will grumble and only act when personally threatened, even when 35-85% of their state comes under ShiawaSaederKrup control, and rise up against the 'nazis in feathers.' More apt to call them Isrealis in Feathers, and consider the whites Palestinians.

[Ravor]

That's ok, I remember when I used to be that idealistic, but don't worry that shiny coat of yours will dull in time.

People have always seen the world in terms of "us" and "them", and perhaps the greatest evil of the rezes is the fact that the segeration the rezes encourage along with the resentment that government handouts breed has done nothing to close the divide between the indians and whites.

Your example of calling the feathered nazis Isrealis did make me chuckle though given the sorid history of everyone involved in that conflict.

[Particle_Beam]

Guys, cut it out with invoking Godwin's Law for your arguments, it is tiresome and ruins whatever semblance of worthwile discussion this thread still has.

[Fuchs]

Guys, cut it out with invoking Godwin's Law for your arguments, it is tiresome and ruins whatever semblance of worthwile discussion this thread still has.

In a discussion about genocide Godwin's Law does not apply. Once you have concentration camps mentioned in the very sources you discuss, not mentioning the obvious and wanted parallels when appropriate would lead to a ruined discussion.

[Particle_Beam]

It's tiresome because it's going on for several pages with several members argumenting that either the fledgling NAN or the ineffective USA (Shadowrun-version) must be the Nazi-equivalent, all the time. Everybody gets it, both sides (NAN and former USA) were bad, both side pursued the total annihilation of the other, and both sides were equal to everybody's favorite bad guys, those wacky nazis. Nobody's innocent, and everything is built upon the bones of little babies.
It's popped up often enough that people should continue with new arguments, instead of being locked on this little over-used aspect about who's more akin to the old nazis (both sides were, and will always be, and everybody accept it).

Also, this thread should be about the NAN not being so present anymore in modern edition supplements, not if the creation of the NAN and the circumstances leading to it were feasible and/or logical.

[LurkerOutThere]

See, that assessment is the reason why you think the NAN doesn't make sense while I think it does.

To me, all the true american patriots, loyal to the ideals of America, would speak out against The Revenuers taking away people- rightfullt held lands and wind up lumped in with SAIM by the corp-military, ultimately becoming the pink skins.

It is one thing to say "I believe that what is being done to the indian's is wrong" it is quite another to say "I believe what is being done to the indians is so wrong I am supporting their effort of genocide and apartheid against all those not of their race and consign myself to second class citizen status willingly so that my enlightened indian masters may rule over me." Oh yes, pink skin tribess, how I hate them.

[Traul]

And how about "if it's the corps or the feathers, I'll try the feathers: at least they have weed."

[LurkerOutThere]

It's tiresome because it's going on for several pages with several members argumenting that either the fledgling NAN or the ineffective USA (Shadowrun-version) must be the Nazi-equivalent, all the time. Everybody gets it, both sides (NAN and former USA) were bad, both side pursued the total annihilation of the other, and both sides were equal to everybody's favorite bad guys, those wacky nazis. Nobody's innocent, and everything is built upon the bones of little babies.
It's popped up often enough that people should continue with new arguments, instead of being locked on this little over-used aspect about who's more akin to the old nazis (both sides were, and will always be, and everybody accept it).

Also, this thread should be about the NAN not being so present anymore in modern edition supplements, not if the creation of the NAN and the circumstances leading to it were feasible and/or logical.

No one asked you to thread nazi. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

For the record, I will continue to use feather wearing nazi's for as long as they exist in setting as they advocate a superiority of one belief or race over others and forced a relocation or second class citizenship of all others in pursuit of that goals. Their racial ideology is what gets them the Nazi moniker, the mass effect weapons used to wipe out 20k people at a time and do untold damage to the enivorment and incalcuable loss of life and property is icing on the cake. While the US government may have signed an order authorizing killing th native american's this is one of the few times in life where I will give them a pass for lack of success as their efforts obviously wern't carried out as there were nough of the 1% of the population (based on today's real world figures) to force the other 99% to capitualate. (Discounting Latino's who evidently are part of the Aztek hive mind).

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

No one asked you to thread nazi. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

For the record, I will continue to use feather wearing nazi's for as long as they exist in setting as they advocate a superiority of one belief or race over others and forced a relocation or second class citizenship of all others in pursuit of that goals. Their racial ideology is what gets them the Nazi moniker, the mass effect weapons used to wipe out 20k people at a time and do untold damage to the enivorment and incalcuable loss of life and property is icing on the cake. While the US government may have signed an order authorizing killing th native american's this is one of the few times in life where I will give them a pass for lack of success as their efforts obviously wern't carried out as there were nough of the 1% of the population (based on today's real world figures) to force the other 99% to capitualate. (Discounting Latino's who evidently are part of the Aztek hive mind).

WOW... Just WOW...

Keep the Faith

[Ravor]

Sadly it isn't out of line given the fact that I clearly remember the discussions about how we have to count Hispanics as firm supporters of the NAN simply because of Big A, despite the fact that Hispanic people tend to be some of the stauntest Christians I've ever met but yet we are supposed to believe that they rolled on their beliefs in a heartbeat.

[kigmatzomat]

It is one thing to say "I believe that what is being done to the indian's is wrong" it is quite another to say "I believe what is being done to the indians is so wrong I am supporting their effort of genocide and apartheid against all those not of their race and consign myself to second class citizen status willingly so that my enlightened indian masters may rule over me." Oh yes, pink skin tribess, how I hate them.

You are granting people prescience of a future that 99.99999999999% of the populace would believe were totally impossible.

Indians DID NOT HAVE MAGIC when they were thrown off their lands. Who in their right mind would have believed that a militia-type response, even one with the support of a fairly competent Mexico/Aztlan, would be concluded by the Indians detonating 3 volcanoes?

Preposterous!

I'm saying that patriotic folks would stand up to the Corps, verbally if not in an armed insurrection. Oh, they'd get crushed and some would eventually wind up in the Re-education camps as sympathizers with the others having their credit ratings ruined.

Following the escape from the re-education camps, Ignoring the magic (which no one would really believe), it would become clear to those who were aware of the actual conflicts between NAN and army that the government was perpetrating a coverup, which would have only put fuel on the fire of the militia-loving westerners.

I'll grant you that once the indians start doing magic, whistling up visible spirits, and causing weather events on command, things are going to be weird between the reds and the pinks. But I'll note that there's no indication in the shadowrun universe that post-Denver there was any red-on-white genocide. Not even comments in Shadowland, AFAIK.

I imagine that quite a lot of those people who would become 2nd class citizens wouldn't be too thrilled at living near the tornado-calling, volcano-summoning, army-thwarting indians and, being people not willing to get involved when someone else is being oppressed, a large percentage of them probably won't have the guts to really resist the indians-with-mojo.

The indians don't keep their moral high ground with their racial apartheid (an apt term), and they do according to all the literature, develop a serious racial/tribal caste structure even to other tribes.

However most of the SR setting is based upon having harshly delineated class lines.

No money or power? 2nd class citizen
Criminal SIN? 3rd class citizen
No SIN? Not even a citizen

[Ravor]

You are also forgetting that the resource rush would be one of the best things to happen ecomonicly to the affected areas.

[Particle_Beam]

How did the common populace benefit from it, when it was foreign corporations who depleted the local ressources and paid minimal wages to anybody. After all, texan workers stormed an oil field because they were underpaid, and overworked. Those corporations were greedy, and did not care about helping local economical sites, as they bribed the ineffective US-government to let them take away whatever they wanted.

[Bira]

Wow, this has gone on for quite a while, hasn't it?

The way I see things, it makes perfect sense to say that these magical revolts weren't nearly as "racial" as most people make them out to be. The people who ended up living in the NAN territories weren't only "pureblood american indians" who kicked anybody else off their new country. There really wouldn't be enough of them to hold that much land. So what I do is decree that the "NAN" movement actually included anyone who was dissatisfied enough with the government to oppose it, which considering everything that was going on at the time would be a pretty broad section of the population, spread all across the country.

From hearing comments here, looks like a lot of people start talking about secession when a new American president is elected just because he doesn't belong to the "right party". What do you think would happen if you actually had a government that went around locking people up in concentration camps and generally siding with big money corps in clear detriment of the civilians? I don't mean "here, have some bailout money", I mean "oh, your paramilitary armed forces killed two hundred people last week? You're not only cleared of all charges, but you're also commended for being a civic-minded hero! Here, have some extraterritoriality!"

The peace agreement for NAN war probably had a lot of people moving into the NAN as well as out of it, and not because of their "native blood".

[kzt]

The way I see things, it makes perfect sense to say that these magical revolts weren't nearly as "racial" as most people make them out to be. The people who ended up living in the NAN territories weren't only "pureblood american indians" who kicked anybody else off their new country. There really wouldn't be enough of them to hold that much land. So what I do is decree that the "NAN" movement actually included anyone who was dissatisfied enough with the government to oppose it, which considering everything that was going on at the time would be a pretty broad section of the population, spread all across the country.
...
The peace agreement for NAN war probably had a lot of people moving into the NAN as well as out of it, and not because of their "native blood".

Except that isn't what the game says happened. If you feel the need to rewrite the history because you think it's too damn unbelievable as written why not just get evict the entire idiocy instead of trimming around the edges to try to make it just slightly less unbelievable?

[Ravor]

Particle_Beam think about what you said for a moment, if things are really so bad that the corps can get away with paying shit wages to oilfield roughnecks then the mere fact that there are jobs at all is going to uplift what must have been a really, really bad econamy.

Bira you know, even if I were to agree with the idea that a broad magical uprising could actually suceed you've still got the problem that the "nice NAN" you end up with is at best the same culturely, legally, and polictically as the old America.