NAN Fading, Has the NAN somehow faded into obscurity? Options

[CanRay]

Didn't the Spaniards do something similar in South America?

[LurkerOutThere]

That's an interesting question and I mean that in all seriousness.

Both the Spanish conquistadors(hey cool Firefox knows how to spell that) in South America and also the British in China were able to accomplish military goals with a relatively small force by having superior technology and tactics. They also benefited by playing off the local political situation and the general lack of communications infrastructure between large swaths of the territory they were running rougshod through. There really isn't a comparison though with a small group like the NAN many of whom would presumably not be professional soldiers fighting against an enemy with modern communications methods.

Further both cases were backed by a parent nation with signifigant population and infrastructure.

[Mooncrow]

So do they not teach history where you live? I use a bit of hyperbole in my nazi comparison but I'd love to hear the bit of nation building where less then .80% of a population forms a nation by conquest. Extra points if you can find me an example with no external support.

Setting aside hyperbole, and going to the logical roots of your statements, the number of nations that start by:

1. Killing a large number of people
2. Forcing even larger numbers of people out of their homes
3. Setting up a ruling elite based by racial/ethnic/national backgrounds
4. Willingness to go to extreme lengths

seems pretty high to me. Though I guess a decently large percentage settle for replacing step two with "enslaving the existing population" instead.

If you really need examples, I can give you a whole bunch - no extra credit though, sadly I'll have a lot of external sources.

[CanRay]

Well, communications can bite both ways.

"Order, counterorder, confusion" after all. And communication systems can be interfered with with a little bit of work by guerillas, who don't need as much training other than sneaking into locations and pulling off a few precise shots with a rifle. Not exactly something that's hard to believe possible for Native Americans who grew up in rural areas. (I mean, I bet there's a bunch of Northern Rednecks that could do something similar back home.).

[pbangarth]

@CanRay: The Spanish did in fact conquer the Aztecs in Mesoamerica very quickly, in a matter of a couple of years, with just a few hundred Spanish soldiers. But they had a little help from the tens of thousands of local peoples eager to throw off the yolk of Aztec oppression and a few bajillion germs and viruses for which the Mesoamericans had no resistance. Throw in the cool technology the Spanish had, and it was curtains for the Empire. The most important factor was disease. Also, the conquest was basically cutting off the Aztec head of an imperial tribute machine and replacing it with a Spanish one. Later, as more and more Spaniards came to fill in the blanks left by plague-induced mass deaths, they themselves were an unstoppable force.

It took thirty years to do in the Incas in South America, because of the vast area of the empire, and the infrastructure they had built over the course of a hundred years that allowed insurrections to supply themselves from storehouses throughout the Inca empire. Same factors helped the Spanish there too. In fact there the disease factor preceded them, killing perhaps the best warrior emperor they ever had, and his firstborn son groomed to take over. The Spanish arrived on the shores of a divided empire at the end of a civil war between two younger sons, neither of whom had ever had much experience or training in empire building.

It took the Spanish roughly two hundred years to get the last of the Maya under control, because of the perniciously difficult terrain they lived in and because they were not organized into a single massive cultural unit, but many smaller ones, which had to be taken on individually.

[Mooncrow]

@CanRay: The Spanish did in fact conquer the Aztecs in Mesoamerica very quickly, in a matter of a couple of years, with just a few hundred Spanish soldiers. But they had a little help from the tens of thousands of local peoples eager to throw off the yolk of Aztec oppression and a few bajillion germs and viruses for which the Mesoamericans had no resistance. Throw in the cool technology the Spanish had, and it was curtains for the Empire. The most important factor was disease. Also, the conquest was basically cutting off the Aztec head of an imperial tribute machine and replacing it with a Spanish one. Later, as more and more Spaniards came to fill in the blanks left by plague-induced mass deaths, they themselves were an unstoppable force.

It took thirty years to do in the Incas in South America, because of the vast area of the empire, and the infrastructure they had built over the course of a hundred years that allowed insurrections to supply themselves from storehouses throughout the Inca empire. Same factors helped the Spanish there too. In fact there the disease factor preceded them, killing perhaps the best warrior emperor they ever had, and his firstborn son groomed to take over. The Spanish arrived on the shores of a divided empire at the end of a civil war between two younger sons, neither of whom had ever had much experience or training in empire building.

It took the Spanish roughly two hundred years to get the last of the Maya under control, because of the perniciously difficult terrain they lived in and because they were not organized into a single massive cultural unit, but many smaller ones, which had to be taken on individually.

Yep, that sums it up quite nicely (glad I checked before posting my long-winded description^^)

As I mentioned earlier, even the most conservative estimates put the death rate from the Euro diseases at >75%.

[pbangarth]

Now, if only I had said "yoke" and not "yolk", I wouldn't have egg on my face.

[Acme]

And by the way Lurker, yes they do teach history where I come from. In fact, let me check my wall.. Oh yeah, History degree.

Considering Nazi Germany set things up through selective predation on the will of the people, turning them against a minority in their own country, initially getting elected to the legislature, appointed by the ruling class and only started expanding to other countries where they claimed there was already an existing historical precedence for their being there and then after that beginning to prey on traditional enemies...
.

Yeah, there's a REAL big comparison between the setup of the NAN and the Third Reich. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sarcastic.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

I agree with Mooncrow: basically every nation ever.

[CanRay]

Well, Sealand.

No, wait, that falls under "Willingness to go to extreme lengths". I mean, fighting the British Navy certainly applies. Even if they did win.

[Daylen]

Feather wearing Nazis... I think this thread just ended since someone just had to invoke Godwin.

[Voran]

Hm, given how well people in America like..well...other people in America, who's to say a given population wouldn't pick a side and think splitting away would be a good idea? Of course, part of the thing that they didn't anticipate was just because you sided with 'the resistance' doesn't mean they'd continue to side with you when the dust settled. Yeah! Down with the man! Down with all his cronies and...wait...what do you mean I'm a crony of the man and have to leave, but...I helped you!

This fracturing led to even further fracturing in the 30s when the US went UCAS then went CAS. But you look at current setups, and you can see the cracks are here now, if it were a realistic option and if the ones doing all such talk weren't actually chickenshits, there might actually be another 'north/south' split.

Heh, also considering this is a necro'd thread, its funny to see its been godwin law'd twice now (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) Both times by you Lurker! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Mordinvan]

Right, whatever Lurker. Feather wearing Nazis? I kinda find that offensive even if I understand the context you're using.

Well when >2% of the population wants to kick the other 98% out, and HAS used WMD's....

[Kruger]

While comparing the NAN to the Spanish conquest of Messyco and South America is riddled with flaws, it does bring up one of the classic fluff blunders in Shadowrun. Why, if the formation of Aztlan was supposed to take Mexico back to it's pre-Spanish roots, are the Aztlaners of Spanish descent still socially superior to the Mesos? The book never even addresses it, and usually there's at least a snarky comment from one of the Shadowland posters in the added comments for discrepancies like that.

I mean, the obvious answer is hypocrisy. The world is full of it, and of people willing to ignore it for their own gain. But an interesting thing to think about. Especially given how entrenched the Aztlaners are with Aztec spirits and ancient metacritters. You'd think some of them would have something to say about the continued racism against those with the most actual native heritage.

And comparing the NAN to Nazis is flawed too. However, he does bring up several excellent points about the pretty unchecked brutality the NAN used to attain their independence. Almost makes the white man's original expansion look tame.

[LurkerOutThere]

Hokay so in the interest of bringing the thread to a close, again:

Is the NAN fading? Yes, the NAN like so much else about Shadowrun, and any other media that's more then about ten years is showing it's age. When it started white guys were evil, the Japanese were going to take over EVERYTHING, and you used three cans of hairspray on your hair if you were a dude and it was accepted. You wore leather and the MAN was keeping you down. The thought of a computer the size of a full on musical keyboard that could do VR was pretty amazing.

But it didn't age well and is somewhat embarrassing. Because when you get right down to brass tacks the Ghost Dance War is pretty horrific at least to a guy living in Omaha who has seen just enough death, destruction, and displaced people abroad that he never wants to see that come here. Further I can't rationalize 1% of the population subjugating the other 99% even if I'm a member of that part of the population. But the worst part about it is about 10-14 years back I could. There was a time when i thought that was pretty cool and I'm a bit embarrassed to recall that stupid kid. This doesn't even take into account the increasing chain of near impossible events that would be needed for the NAN thing to shake out exactly like it did.

So yea, the NAN can die a quiet stupid death and not affect the core story that is Shadowrun one bit. The treaty of Denver is silly and my only hope from it coming up for renewal in the actual universe timeline is they quietly undo a significant portion of it.

[Mooncrow]

While comparing the NAN to the Spanish conquest of Messyco and South America is riddled with flaws, it does bring up one of the classic fluff blunders in Shadowrun. Why, if the formation of Aztlan was supposed to take Mexico back to it's pre-Spanish roots, are the Aztlaners of Spanish descent still socially superior to the Mesos? The book never even addresses it, and usually there's at least a snarky comment from one of the Shadowland posters in the added comments for discrepancies like that.

I mean, the obvious answer is hypocrisy. The world is full of it, and of people willing to ignore it for their own gain. But an interesting thing to think about. Especially given how entrenched the Aztlaners are with Aztec spirits and ancient metacritters. You'd think some of them would have something to say about the continued racism against those with the most actual native heritage.

And comparing the NAN to Nazis is flawed too. However, he does bring up several excellent points about the pretty unchecked brutality the NAN used to attain their independence. Almost makes the white man's original expansion look tame.

I've always assumed that the "Aztec spirits and ancient metacritters" didn't actually give a crap who was running things and it was easier to keep the changes as few as possible. Given the history of the "Aztec" religion, it doesn't seem that far-fetched. Some fluff would be nice, but then that would mean actually revealing who's really behind the curtain in Aztlan.

"Unchecked brutality" seems a strong word to use; I'm not claiming it was all happiness and rainbows, but there was some pretty heavy provocation (though I agree with Acme that the Lone Eagle thing is dumb, but w/e), and while they took some pretty extreme steps to get out of the prison camps and get a place of their own, I don't see much violence for violence's sake. /shrug

edit: It is a stretch as written for NAN to have happened, no question. So you can:

A. Ignore it
B. Keep it as written and cringe a little when it gets brought up
C. Make selective edits and/or insertions so it seems more plausible

Personally, I like the concept of NAN and Amazonia being around, so I go with C. But YMMV, of course.

[Acme]

Well, I didn't quite bring up LE being stupid but meh.

As for Aztlan- I actually always assumed that it WAS hypocrisy in action, that the whole bringing up the Aztec thing was just a way of control and the ability to use the blood magic to help further Aztechnology's goals. Though in the Aztlan book there is a blurb in there that

And I agree, Mooncrow. YMMV. Have your own opinions on the subject, but it's probably not gonna get written out of the actual books. There are quite a few things in the books that hinge on the NAN's existence (Aztlan, Denver's permanent Berlin-esque setting, Horizon's existence with the PPC takeover of LA, Seattle's prominence because of it being the only Pacific port, etc...) so *shrug* there we go.


To actually answer the original question of whether they're fading? I don't think so. I don't think they're getting a huge amount of prominence lately only 'cause the writers are focusing so much more globally so they can't spend that much time on just one place. Hell, when was the last time either Tir got that much face time? Hell, it took forever to finally get any mention of Australia and since then they've just been ignored. And with the death of Target: Latin America, it took till 6WA and Ghost Cartels for Amazonia to get anything even though they're this year's campaign with War coming up.

I think things are being shifted around with Tsimshian and Ute's ending, but there are still enough points that keep the NAN at least simmering. Brackhaven's ascendancy possibly causing troubles with S-S, the rise of the Koshare syndicate, PCC having issues with still swallowing LA (and the upcoming problems hinted at with Aztech forcing their allowance which may piss the ever loving hell out of GW if they get into PCC's sector), and the like. Some countries aren't getting that much talk since A-M has always been quiet ('cept for the False Face Society in Threats 2), the Sioux have always been kinda there though you always hear of the Wildcats and Truth Dancers, and TPA doesn't even really count since they ate Iceland and Lapland and the only real major writeup they ever had was in Target:Wastelands.

[Tzeentch]

The NAN "fading" in the storyline is a function of setting concatenation -- it appears the line developers latched on pretty hard to the idea of setting hotspots (Target: X) and everything else is flyover country between Seattle and the hotspot. One of those influence maps with region area multiplied by percentage of material published on it would be hilarious as Seattle would cover most of the globe.

That's not necessarily a big issue given the entire stock of Shadowrun material (CP2020 did just fine primarily focused on Night City, for example) but the realtime advancing storyline exacerbates disconnects. They must not get much negative feedback on the issue though - lots of people have a hate-on for the NAN for various reasons. unfortunate, as the NAN is also the source of some of the coolest Threats in the game (in my not-so-humble opinion).

I for one would welcome our Target: Native American Nations overlords if that ever was announced, though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Megu]

I've always assumed that the "Aztec spirits and ancient metacritters" didn't actually give a crap who was running things and it was easier to keep the changes as few as possible. Given the history of the "Aztec" religion, it doesn't seem that far-fetched. Some fluff would be nice, but then that would mean actually revealing who's really behind the curtain in Aztlan.

"Unchecked brutality" seems a strong word to use; I'm not claiming it was all happiness and rainbows, but there was some pretty heavy provocation (though I agree with Acme that the Lone Eagle thing is dumb, but w/e), and while they took some pretty extreme steps to get out of the prison camps and get a place of their own, I don't see much violence for violence's sake. /shrug

edit: It is a stretch as written for NAN to have happened, no question. So you can:

A. Ignore it
B. Keep it as written and cringe a little when it gets brought up
C. Make selective edits and/or insertions so it seems more plausible

Personally, I like the concept of NAN and Amazonia being around, so I go with C. But YMMV, of course.

This is pretty much my take in a nutshell. Option C please.

[Acme]

Meh, I'll select D. Deal with it.

Since I don't cringe when it gets brought up, I only cringe a statements like the ones Lurker makes. It works for me for my interpretation of how it was already written.

[Mordinvan]

Meh, I'll select D. Deal with it.

Since I don't cringe when it gets brought up, I only cringe a statements like the ones Lurker makes. It works for me for my interpretation of how it was already written.

To each their own I guess, I just can't find something like that plausible enough to include in the game.

[Sengir]

Yep, it happened not long after NAN destroyed Los Alomos,

And more importantly, the govt was fighting a losing war for its own home, that tends to make people nervous (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Mordinvan]

And more importantly, the govt was fighting a losing war for its own home, that tends to make people nervous (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Problem is, I don't think anyone can explain why it was a losing war. At best Nan would have had something like 30k awakened grand total, and of that, I think something like 3k mages. The US armed forces has as many soldiers as NAN as total population. Even without magic at all the army would simply crush them there sheer numbers, and we all know that the US army is perfectly happy to expend a 25 thousand bullets to hit one enemy soldier. I just don't see NAN being able to win a ground war.

[CanRay]

Problem is, I don't think anyone can explain why it was a losing war.

Yeah, because the US has such a good track record since Vietnam in it's wars. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[sabs]

Yeah, because the US has such a good track record since Vietnam in it's wars. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Actually it does (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
The US won the majority of all battles in Vietnam.
The US crushed Iraq twice.

Without getting into the politics of whether Iraq was good or bad.

The US Military is just hopeless at winning hearts and minds.. and so they eventually lose the important part of the war. But the physical battles? the US Military is still quite good at those.


I'm still not sure how 30,000 awakeneds held off an army of over 1million trained professionals who would have been more than willing to send overwhelming force.

Unless the NAN was bringing volcanos up and wiping out entire regiments at once.