NAN Fading, Has the NAN somehow faded into obscurity? Options

[Warlordtheft]

This fracturing led to even further fracturing in the 30s when the US went UCAS then went CAS. But you look at current setups, and you can see the cracks are here now, if it were a realistic option and if the ones doing all such talk weren't actually chickenshits, there might actually be another 'north/south' split.

Case in point ranchers and farmers about water and federal land use rights. It is a sore point for many of them with the US Federal government. Add to it the effects of the resource rush allowing the big corp to take the land and pollute it the area around, thereby threatening their lively hood. End result, who are they going to side with? And IIRCC many anglo's could claim indian blood even if there was just the barest hint native american blood in their geneology. Meta's were accepted (til the Tir), and finally their pinkskin sympathizers were given an exemption (varied from tribe to tribe though and in some NAN nations like UTE they were 2nd class citizens..

[Mordinvan]

Case in point ranchers and farmers about water and federal land use rights. It is a sore point for many of them with the US Federal government. Add to it the effects of the resource rush allowing the big corp to take the land and pollute it the area around, thereby threatening their lively hood. End result, who are they going to side with? And IIRCC many anglo's could claim indian blood even if there was just the barest hint native american blood in their geneology. Meta's were accepted (til the Tir), and finally their pinkskin sympathizers were given an exemption (varied from tribe to tribe though and in some NAN nations like UTE they were 2nd class citizens..

I just don't see them having the needed popular, or material support needed to pull that off. They would have lost huge levels of support for a) destroying Los Alamos b) Threatening to do it again c) demanding the entire continent back, d) threatening to displace 200+ million people.
Each one of those would strip away any level of popular support they would have had, and combined even the moderates of the NAN themselves would likely accuse them of going too far and rebel from within their own ranks, because they know the level of hell that sort of behavior tends to attract.

[sabs]

Remember how

a) Americans react to threats
b) Americans get all worked up about "Their way of life" "Their Country"

Just look at the current rhetoric in politics. Look at the NYC Mosque debate/argument.

Now instead of 9/11 and a bunch of Islamic Extremist Terrorists. You have Los Alamos and Native American Indians.

I try not to think too much about the whole NAN thing, because it makes no sense. But, if you're going to actually poke at it and try to figure out how it ticked. There's some big issues.

Just because some American Rancher wants to blow up the IRS and hates the US Federal Government, does not mean he's going to side with a bunch of Terrorist Native Americans.

[Warlordtheft]

I just don't see them having the needed popular, or material support needed to pull that off. They would have lost huge levels of support for a) destroying Los Alamos b) Threatening to do it again c) demanding the entire continent back, d) threatening to displace 200+ million people.
Each one of those would strip away any level of popular support they would have had, and combined even the moderates of the NAN themselves would likely accuse them of going too far and rebel from within their own ranks, because they know the level of hell that sort of behavior tends to attract.

There is a lot of resentment in these "flyover states" regarding the Federal government. Especially in the rural areas. So to them Los Alamos is detroyed by magic, big deal, the feds got their come uppance. Yeah they may want the entire continent back, but that is not going to happen (it the difference between rhetoric and facts on the ground). Case in point, if you took all of Iran's threats against its neighbors as fact, they would be a smoking crater right now.

[Warlordtheft]

Just because some American Rancher wants to blow up the IRS and hates the US Federal Government, does not mean he's going to side with a bunch of Terrorist Native Americans.

It doesn't mean that he won't either. Keep in mind Bob, his neighbor ofthe last 20 years was dragged off to an intenment camp for having 5% Sioux blood in him (for Bob's protection).

[sabs]

It doesn't mean that he won't either. Keep in mind Bob, his neighbor ofthe last 20 years was dragged off to an intenment camp for having 5% Sioux blood in him (for Bob's protection).

Yeah
That does cause a problem.. for some.

But people treated blacks this way for over a 100 years after the Civil War. And in some places, it hasn't gotten a heck of a lot better.

Well, but Bob was alright folks..but he was part Injun.. and them folks are weird. They got this weird magic now too. That's just not Christian.
Don't underestimate our ability to rationalize prejudice. We're good at it.

It's not that I got something against them injuns.. but you know.. They're shifty fellas with all that magic.

I'm just saying that I don't buy an Oklahoma farmer siding with the NAN. Maybe in New Mexico/Arizona.. but having seen how they treat the reservations down down. I kind of doubt it.

Would some? Absolutely. But enough to make a difference? When the NAN has crazy rhetoric and is threatening basically a war of destruction?
There is 1 thing the fly over states are proud of. It's being Americans. USA #1, even if they aren't fond of the Fed Government.

[Critias]

*sigh*

Why is it some people are so, so, bad at even realizing when they're making inflammatory political statements?

[CanRay]

Because it's a blindspot due to their beliefs. We all have them in one thing or another.

[sabs]

*sigh*

Why is it some people are so, so, bad at even realizing when they're making inflammatory political statements?

Who says they don't realize it.

[Critias]

Who says they don't realize it.

Well, if you DO realize you're making inflammatory political statements, maybe you need to take a gander at the ToS of the board and stop doing it.

[Sengir]

Problem is, I don't think anyone can explain why it was a losing war.

Nor will there ever be a better explaination than "the plot says so". In real life terms it would be totally impossible, but in the Shadowrun universe it's an axiom, just like the existence of magic.

It doesn't mean that he won't either. Keep in mind Bob, his neighbor ofthe last 20 years was dragged off to an intenment camp for having 5% Sioux blood in him (for Bob's protection).

Don't worry, we have plenty of evidence that he was supporting them communist injun nazis. And I'm sure you as a patriot understand that showing this evidence would jeopardize national security and put the lives of our brave soldiers at risk...

After a couple of years Bob's neighbour might find an upstanding judge who throws that bit of hearsay out of the window, in which case the government will simply "find" evidence against Bob and do some enhanced interrogation on him till he implicates the guy they originally arrested. The tried and true ponzi scheme of torture (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[CanRay]

"ToS, like those apply to ME! I'm right !"

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Unless the NAN was bringing volcanos up and wiping out entire regiments at once.

Well, they did bring hurricanes to air bases if I recall my fluff correctly.
Bringing small earth tremors and flood could be doable to break military infra-structure. If I'm talking non-sense, please point it out.
Now, I believe that ICBM's bases would be in places far from tectonic activity to protect the silos, right? I mean, the silos wouldn't be designed with the kind of protection from earthquakes, right? If the NAN were able to provoke earthquakes strong enough to cripple these bases, then the US wouldn't be able to strike back with nukes (not that they would actually do it, but if after the Ghost Dance they thought that the only way to keep the country unified would be to nuke the crap out of, let's say, Arizona for instance, because that's where the NAN main base is located, they could consider it an option).
So, after having their nuke silos disabled and being the target of a spell that created volcanos all around the country, well, better lose half than the whle thing, right?

[LurkerOutThere]

Yeah, because the US has such a good track record since Vietnam in it's wars. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Even ignoring the innacuracies of that statement their win/loss record against Indians and native insurrections is amazing. I think a Vietnam comparison could be made but not for the side you think.

[Kruger]

"Unchecked brutality" seems a strong word to use; I'm not claiming it was all happiness and rainbows, but there was some pretty heavy provocation (though I agree with Acme that the Lone Eagle thing is dumb, but w/e), and while they took some pretty extreme steps to get out of the prison camps and get a place of their own, I don't see much violence for violence's sake. /shrug

Killing 20,000 people for the sake of making a point isn't a statement, that insane. I mean, there's no sense trying to explain that one away. 9/11 got Americas whipped up into a frenzy as it was. You wouldn't have even needed internment camps after that. People would have been happy to start killing Native Americans in the streets.

Remember, these were the same NAs that had almost started WW3 with the launch of a nuclear missile. It's entirely likely that the average American would assume the NAs were getting exactly what they had coming to them. And the Treaty of Denver was just a plan hashed out by governments to redraw lines. If post colonial Africa teaches us anything, it is that lines on a map drawn by people far away mean very little to the people who have been living in an area longer than they can remember. The Native Americans most likely would have had to deal with armed resistance from all sorts of resistant native Americans. Which means one of two things: Continued genocides against a civilian populace, or a costly insurgency. And while Americans are not quite as ready to die as the average jihadi (one thing you can respect those crazy fucks for is their tenacity and dedication), I am not fully convinced it is all talk either. Some crazy people come out of the flyover states.

It's all irrelevant anyway. Like I've said before, FASA probably found itself saddled with all these ideas that they published in 1e and didn't really think enough about until later. Kinda hard to go back and retcon Tir Tairngire and the NAN and Aztlan, etc to something that makes more sense.

[CanadianWolverin...]

Just because some American Rancher wants to blow up the IRS and hates the US Federal Government, does not mean he's going to side with a bunch of Terrorist Native Americans.

You say "Terrorist", I say "Freedom Fighter".

<_< >_>

I find the 1% of population figure in the US IRL (Canada is higher IIRC) interesting as well, that is within a very narrow stricture of what it means to be descended from a North American native tribe, because if you get right down to it genetically they are descended from Asiatic thanks to Pacific and land bridge venturing tribes and even some European descent on the eastern side due to Vikings and the others. So just what genetic markers are used are never quite clarified, its open to interpretation and can be used to be both inclusive and exclusive. And still others aren't even using genetic markers but only using genealogy, which is based on incomplete records due to past practices of not everyone getting a accurate birth certificate (or one at all) or natural causes ruining records where they are stored (fires, floods, mold, vermin, etc) - heck, dig back far enough in American genealogy and you are using church records, not federal, state, municipal or hospital records, so not a church goer or your community doesn't even have one there isn't much recorded on you as an ancestor. Genetics would probably even reveal to some that they had NAN ancestry when the family stories happened to leave that out, much to their chagrin in the start of the 6th world. "Natives could look like or be anyone... Due your duty as an American citizen, report anyone you suspect of being or aiding SAIM today!" How convenient for the feds.

And the 1% of population figure for those with any magic is also a interesting thing as well, since I take it is in regards to world wide population. This doesn't indicate distribution among regions though and doesn't even get into the margin for statistical error (+/- how much % exactly). How long have census records been kept on this stuff anyway, especially considering the upheavals that were kicked off in this setting, record keeping may not even have been accurate but rather made educated guesses at. And considering also how we always seem to remark there is an awful lot of magic in the shadows of our setting, what do you think the chances are everyone answered their census truthfully? Or even at all given all the SINless? And how many times has the ubiquitous Matrix versions crashed now, taking with it all kinds of SIN related stuff?

And that is before you have shadowtalk casting doubt on all kinds of official stories.

Yeah, you are definitely on shaky ground with those numbers if that is what has you convinced the NAN are just "impossible" in the 6th world. So, given how our setting is presented to us even through shadow sources, I am going to have to go with option C "C. Make selective edits and/or insertions so it seems more plausible".

[Mordinvan]

There is a lot of resentment in these "flyover states" regarding the Federal government. Especially in the rural areas. So to them Los Alamos is detroyed by magic, big deal, the feds got their come uppance. Yeah they may want the entire continent back, but that is not going to happen (it the difference between rhetoric and facts on the ground). Case in point, if you took all of Iran's threats against its neighbors as fact, they would be a smoking crater right now.

Except in this case, the NAN actually mean it, and I'm not sure if you know this, but most of the people you're saying hate the government, have this tendency to hate people blowing up their country even more.

[Mordinvan]

Well, they did bring hurricanes to air bases if I recall my fluff correctly.
Bringing small earth tremors and flood could be doable to break military infra-structure. If I'm talking non-sense, please point it out.
Now, I believe that ICBM's bases would be in places far from tectonic activity to protect the silos, right? I mean, the silos wouldn't be designed with the kind of protection from earthquakes, right? If the NAN were able to provoke earthquakes strong enough to cripple these bases, then the US wouldn't be able to strike back with nukes (not that they would actually do it, but if after the Ghost Dance they thought that the only way to keep the country unified would be to nuke the crap out of, let's say, Arizona for instance, because that's where the NAN main base is located, they could consider it an option).
So, after having their nuke silos disabled and being the target of a spell that created volcanos all around the country, well, better lose half than the whle thing, right?

You go in on foot with a million+ soldiers, and put a bullet or 10 into every living thing that looks even remotely suspicious.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Hokay so in the interest of bringing the thread to a close, again:

But it didn't age well and is somewhat embarrassing. Because when you get right down to brass tacks the Ghost Dance War is pretty horrific at least to a guy living in Omaha who has seen just enough death, destruction, and displaced people abroad that he never wants to see that come here. Further I can't rationalize 1% of the population subjugating the other 99% even if I'm a member of that part of the population. But the worst part about it is about 10-14 years back I could. There was a time when i thought that was pretty cool and I'm a bit embarrassed to recall that stupid kid. This doesn't even take into account the increasing chain of near impossible events that would be needed for the NAN thing to shake out exactly like it did.

So yea, the NAN can die a quiet stupid death and not affect the core story that is Shadowrun one bit. The treaty of Denver is silly and my only hope from it coming up for renewal in the actual universe timeline is they quietly undo a significant portion of it.

I disagree with you on this there Lurker...

Even if it required a nigh impossible chain of near impossible events, that is exactly what happened in the Shadowrun History Books. As such it is verifiable history and something that the denizens of Shadowrun must deal with... The NAN History brough a lot of changes to North America, and it is okay... I say live with it and move on... it is not like you can change history that you don't like (as a denizen of the world at least)...

There is a lot of real world History that I am sure many, many countries would like to forget... many Countries are the originators of great holocausts (I include USA in that), and yet there is nothing that the real world citizens of any of those countries can do but live with it. It happened and it is history... Move on and try to make a better world...

Not trying to start a fight over it, but it is pretty funny to me how many people who originally enjoyed the NAN's foundation, now absolutely hate it. Just Move on... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[LurkerOutThere]

Ok TJ I have a lot of respect for you, but this is a vapid argument.

Point of fact on at least one occasion regarding this exact issue history has proven to be very malleable. A good chunk of the original NAN story and the original NAN book got hand waved to be propaganda, that's a literal revision to the actual history. Further the entire new revolution and much of system failure pretty much existed to get some of the stupid out of the SR universe. The NAN only continues to propogate because the writing team now is likely pretty uncomfortable exploring conflicts along racial lines, much easier to have folks continually hate on trolls. This however is forehead smacking when there is every reason for a level of conflict when by every indication if your family is sinless in the SR universe the NAN might have started that chain, uprooted you from your lands and forced you to move somewhere else. How has that gone over in the holy land. Even if you stayed in place by meeting some racial purity test for your feather wearing overlords (because totally we'd all dress like that). Your a second class citizen.

Basically the existence of the NAN in it's current state as the place where pretty much nothing goes wrong runs very counter to the way the rest of the world has been hit with upheavals. Hell with the Thisman issue resolved and the seizing of LA the NAN are doing better then almost any nation on the planet in Shadowrun.

Mordivan: You realize that missile silos are actually built with potential earthquakes in mind, further even if they are compromised they are other options for delivering nuclear or conventional retalation, our submarine and bomb fleet are a huge expensive contigency plan against the ICBM arsenal being compromised.

[Acme]

I'm sorry Lurker, but I think you're blinded by the fact you hate the NAN. Things are NOT hunky dory there. They're NOT "places where nothing goes wrong." The fact you bring up the Tshimshian thing as "resolved" is completely crap, considering the land is dealing with MCT's shenanigans and there's also hints that the reverse of what happened there for so long (with the Haida being labeled terrorists by the ruling tribes, now after the pullout the Haida has taken power and now the Tshimshian are pulling terroist stuff enough to make the place a hot zone for the S-S)
And Ute went under, causing a big havoc for PCC since a lot of former Ute residents want Aztech to operate in the PCC, but the problem is that the Azzies will use that to run a backdoor into Denver and Ghostwalker will all but declare war on the PCC for that.
And Brackhaven is poking at the S-S doors now that he's in charge, not to mention with JTFSeattle there, the whole Council is secretly preparing for an invasion in case.

A-M has the problem with the False Face Society (since that never got resolved) and TPA is on the verge of fractionalizing due to taking over Iceland.

Honestly, I wonder your personal reasons for being blinded to the NAN's problems, but hey, I won't go there. I just think you're wrong when you're thinking that the writers aren't messing with them like they do the other uphevals.

[CanRay]

Actually, seeing as what's going on in the 6th World, is there any place that's "Hunky Dory"?

...

OK, that hasn't changed from what is going on IRL, but it's worse in almost every place.

[kzt]

Actually, seeing as what's going on in the 6th World, is there any place that's "Hunky Dory"?

...

OK, that hasn't changed from what is going on IRL, but it's worse in almost every place.

Given that SR IS a dystopia...

[Mordinvan]

Mordivan: You realize that missile silos are actually built with potential earthquakes in mind, further even if they are compromised they are other options for delivering nuclear or conventional retalation, our submarine and bomb fleet are a huge expensive contigency plan against the ICBM arsenal being compromised.

I was working on the assumption nuclear weapons were actually nonfunctional because of the awakening. The US would have had way more then enough conventional forces to simply roll the NAN. Everything they seemed to do which counted the US army is apparently only available via the power of plot anyway.

[Sengir]

The Native Americans most likely would have had to deal with armed resistance from all sorts of resistant native Americans.

You mean the guys they just summarily shipped out?