NAN Fading, Has the NAN somehow faded into obscurity? Options

[Acme]

Sabs, not all Americans are gung-ho on the military, and by that I'm not implying that they would seek to disrespect the military, they just often don't have the same fetish for the military that others seem to have and view them realistically.

[Yerameyahu]

Militia are extremely fringe groups.

[Acme]

Not to mention many militias actively view the military as a "tool of the oppressive government" and though they revere service, they view the military as suspect.

[Mooncrow]

Their view of what America is tends to be... interesting, as well. For quite a few of the ones I know, if NAN didn't bother to root them out of their mostly remote homes, and said "don't bother us, we won't bother you" I don't think they would think twice about agreeing to that.

[sabs]

Sabs, not all Americans are gung-ho on the military, and by that I'm not implying that they would seek to disrespect the military, they just often don't have the same fetish for the military that others seem to have and view them realistically.

How many Americans were against going into Afghanistan in 2002?
How many were /for/ it.
Most Americans don't like to be threatened.

Militias are fringe groups, but there are actually a fair number of them.. and they would not go quietly into the night and move out of their homes.

[suoq]

How many Americans were against going into Afghanistan in 2002?
How many were /for/ it

My bet is on many of the ones that were for it, denying it three times before the cock crows.

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I think I have a new way of thinking about the NAN. My new belief is that the U.S was threatened. Both coasts and all the overpopulated areas cried "Take the midwest! Leave us alone!" and so the people of the midwest went to Coyote and said "What's the deal?" and he said "Don't sweat it. Keep the ranches and the farms. All we're doing is getting rid of California and the East Coast. We're just trying to get Washington out of our hair." and they said "No more listening to D.C? No more putting up with New York and California? It's a deal." Soon all the Californians that were turning the Colorado mountains into the new California were evacuated out and it was all business as usual.

Every now and then someone from upstate New York, or maybe even Delhi, figures it out and flees to the NAN. It's all kept very quiet.

[Dwight]

Militias are fringe groups, but there are actually a fair number of them.. and they would not go quietly into the night and move out of their homes.

They are positively dwarfed by the US National Guard reserve, which is just a branch of overall US military.

P.S. If you talked about the support for the Iraq invasion in regards to "gung-ho" that would make more sense, that fever had a lot of Fed politicians and papers banging the drums....and then later looking sheepish. On the other hand I'm not much for war, I'm not American, and I still came to concede at the time (and still see) Afghanistan as an unfortunate but ultimately prudent invasion.

[sabs]

See Suoq, THAT I could believe (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Mooncrow]

I think I have a new way of thinking about the NAN. My new belief is that the U.S was threatened. Both coasts and all the overpopulated areas cried "Take the midwest! Leave us alone!" and so the people of the midwest went to Coyote and said "What's the deal?" and he said "Don't sweat it. Keep the ranches and the farms. All we're doing is getting rid of California and the East Coast. We're just trying to get Washington out of our hair." and they said "No more listening to D.C? No more putting up with New York and California? It's a deal." Soon all the Californians that were turning the Colorado mountains into the new California were evacuated out and it was all business as usual.

Every now and then someone from upstate New York, or maybe even Delhi, figures it out and flees to the NAN. It's all kept very quiet.

Heh, that's pretty much how I have it in m games; with slightly different language used^^

[Yerameyahu]

I mean, what's a 'fair number'? By 'extremely fringe', I *meant* 'tiny' (also crazy, insignificant, etc.).

[sabs]

I mean, what's a 'fair number'? By 'extremely fringe', I *meant* 'tiny' (also crazy, insignificant, etc.).

Roughly a quarter million..
I just don't think people are going to react to being threatened by terrorist acts with such non-chalence, and 'okay I'll join you'

[Grinder]

Because Americans tend to be gung-ho military.. especially when people start threatening them.
Look at the number of Militia that exist today in specificaly those states that were cleared out for the NAN.

Militia are extremely fringe groups.

Not to mention many militias actively view the military as a "tool of the oppressive government" and though they revere service, they view the military as suspect.

Their view of what America is tends to be... interesting, as well. For quite a few of the ones I know, if NAN didn't bother to root them out of their mostly remote homes, and said "don't bother us, we won't bother you" I don't think they would think twice about agreeing to that.

How many Americans were against going into Afghanistan in 2002?
How many were /for/ it.
Most Americans don't like to be threatened.

Militias are fringe groups, but there are actually a fair number of them.. and they would not go quietly into the night and move out of their homes.

One more of this shit by anyone, and this thread is finally closed.
4. Discussion of politics, religion, and sex are prohibited, except as they directly pertain to Shadowrun or another game. Discussions on these subjects will be watched closely, and any innapropriate posts may result in warnings or suspensions.

[sabs]

How does it not pertain to the NAN formation and taking something like 1/2 of the US land mass?

except as they directly pertain to Shadowrun...

[Inca]

Most of that land isn't cities. It's not Boswash.

Can you provide examples of this?
Hamas: Generations later and still fighting.
American Indian Wars: 100+ years of warfare.

I'm stuck. Which humans choose moving before all the soldiers were dead and stayed peacefully?

Hamas: Who do you think lived on the land which is now present day israel? Thousands of palestinian villages were razed and thousands and thousands of people were displaced and killed if they didn't leave. That's why there's more palestinian refugees outside of israel than live inside the palestinian territories inside of israel....

American Indians: have you ever heard of trail of tears??

Both those examples you gave are perfect analogies to what NAN did to the U.S....the only difference is that NAN didn't do it by ruthlessly slaughtering thousands.

Militia's would definitely go off quietly into the night. Because they are given a viable alternative....moving to the UCAS and living as full citizens...most likely getting a lot of disaster relief. All those militia's you see in michigan or in other parts of rural america are total pussies...as soon as you confronted them with any serious military resistance they'd piss their pants and go running....why? because they've lived a totally sheltered life and never gotten toughened up. They piss and moan about big government and then would freak out when the Xbox 360 stops working because the infrastructure is crumbling.

The only group that are serious force to be reckoned with that aren't scared of anything is the U.S. Marines....but they would have to obey orders and their commander in chief signed the treaty of denver in order to ensure the survival of the nation.

[sabs]

Inca (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
I think you got the thread locked.

[Inca]

it's locked? All i'm talking is about is why NAN taking over half the u.s. is just as plausible as anything else in SR.

[Megu]

Inca (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
I think you got the thread locked.

Grinder's totally bluffing dude (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[suoq]

the only difference is that NAN didn't do it by ruthlessly slaughtering thousands.

In an attempt to avoid politics by not referencing them (my bad earlier), I'll try and focus on this correctly.

What you are saying is exactly why I have a hard time believing the NAN. "NAN didn't do it by ruthlessly slaughtering thousands" makes me wonder how they managed to do it without ruthlessly slaughtering thousands. In my experience, the thousands have to be slaughtered before the hundreds that are left pick up and go. I'm unable to think of an example where the people moved without being slaughtered first. Maybe there's an example out there but I can't think of it. (If someone can, PM me. It's not worth breaking the TOS about.) Now I can understand the NAN's lack of desire to slaughter. I find it commendable. But I have a hard time believing the people being kicked out took it so well.

The rest of your post, I'm not even going to respond to.

[Megu]

In an attempt to avoid politics by not referencing them (my bad earlier), I'll try and focus on this correctly.

What you are saying is exactly why I have a hard time believing the NAN. "NAN didn't do it by ruthlessly slaughtering thousands" makes me wonder how they managed to do it without ruthlessly slaughtering thousands. In my experience, the thousands have to be slaughtered before the hundreds that are left pick up and go. I'm unable to think of an example where the people moved without being slaughtered first. Maybe there's an example out there but I can't think of it. (If someone can, PM me. It's not worth breaking the TOS about.) Now I can understand the NAN's lack of desire to slaughter. I find it commendable. But I have a hard time believing the people being kicked out took it so well.

The rest of your post, I'm not even going to respond to.

This is what leads me towards an interpretation of the NAN that doesn't involve a mass, one-way exodus of population. Because you're right, that would take a hell of a show of force. But I can see most Anglos leaving for friendlier territory more out of a desire to stay with like minded people and amongst a country that's going to treat them as first class citizens than out of fear of being killed outright, especially if there's spots opening up out east because of Eastern supporters of the NAN moving west (everybody from pro-Mohawk folks in Albany, to Nuyoricans and other Latinos on the coast and in Cali, to the newly meta in Atlanta just happy to head somewhere friendlier to them than the South). A major demographic rearrangement doesn't have to mean genocide and diaspora.

[Dwight]

There are numerous examples where significant number of people pick up and leave because of a government change that's scary, or relatively small acts of violence convince a much larger number of people it's time to pick up and get out of Dodge before the real bullets start flying. There is a concentrating instinct/rationale, like a flock of sheep if you will, that happens where people under new governance by the Other Kind decide it's a good idea to regroup elsewhere [often with the intention of coming back].

Biblical earthshaking mojo might just be able to trigger that?

Also keep in mind that it wasn't a full purge of Whitey. That would be quite problematic given how diluted Native ancestry is in the US. It always came off to me as more like a cultural purge. Shut up, keep to yourself, and live under our rule and our laws with rough approximations of our values (accepting being not quite a citizen if you don't match some certain criteria) and you can stay. Otherwise you'll leave if you know what's good for you.

[Megu]

Also keep in mind that it wasn't a full purge of Whitey. That would be quite problematic given how diluted Native ancestry is in the US. It always came off to me as more like a cultural purge. Shut up, keep to yourself, and live under our rule and our laws with rough approximations of our values (accepting being not quite a citizen if you don't match some certain criteria) and you can stay. Otherwise you'll leave if you know what's good for you.

Exactly! I see this as being as much about how you act as how you look. Someone with blond hair and blue eyes who shows respect for the Native ways isn't going to have major problems.

[Dwight]

Exactly! I see this as being as much about how you act as how you look. Someone with blond hair and blue eyes who shows respect for the Native ways isn't going to have major problems.

Unless what they say about the effects of years of sniffing glue is true, I'm very confident there are canon references to the status of "non-citizens", including non-Natives living in Pueblo Corporate Council territory.

[Critias]

...the only difference is that NAN didn't do it by ruthlessly slaughtering thousands.

The 20,000 people that used to live in Alamos, New Mexico, very quietly disagree with that last part. They'd be louder about their disagreement, but they're all dead.

<snip>

A whole bunch of ignorant ranting about how soft militias are, and how totally awesome and hardcore Marines are.

<snip>

Way to keep politics out of it. Do you have some special version of selective color-blindness that leaves you incapable of seeing purple text, or something?

PEOPLE. PLEASE DON'T GET A 30+ PAGE LOCKED BY CONTINUING TO IGNORE THE FRIENDLY MODERATOR.

[Megu]

Unless what they say about the effects of years of sniffing glue is true, I'm very confident there are canon references to the status of "non-citizens", including non-Natives living in Pueblo Corporate Council territory.

But then we're talking about who's defined as "Native". Again, I tend to interpret that, by 2070, as a label of culture rather than of ethnic background; all cultural Anglos might have restricted rights, reservations and whatnot, but that's not to say all non-ethnic-Amerinds have that status as a cultural Anglo. I imagine many won't.

[Mordinvan]

edit:
I just don't see the US or Canada giving up that much territory under threat, ever, especially not without mobilizing everyone person of fighting age to try and keep it.