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> Feather Fall, The Ground, and You!, Or what happens when you land on someone.
Delta56
post Jul 9 2009, 06:10 AM
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So one of my runners asked me with his feather fall adept power he is able to land from a distance and suffer no damage.

What happens if he lands on some one, or what happens to the surface of his landing?

A 160 pound runner jumping off a a ten story building and landing on the ground is bad, but 12 ranks in feather fall would make the damage negotiable... what would happen to the ground, or the person in the way?

...And no, really, my players do more than just ask questions that require mathematics and physics degrees.... really!

{Additional Edit}

Also, if the jumper lands on an object, does he stop on the surface he lands on or does he go through?
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Jaid
post Jul 9 2009, 06:30 AM
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no degree in physics or mathematics required, just basic physics. this helpful chap by the name of newton proposed a set of 3 laws regarding objects in motion. the third of said laws is that in a given interaction between 2 objects, said 2 objects will exert a force on each other, and those 2 forces will be equal in magnitude to each other, but opposite in direction. (the first and second are that an objectrequires an applied force to accelerate, and that said force is equal to the mass of the object times the acceleration of that object)

therefore, we can deduce that if the person the adept lands on is applying a negligible force on the adept (which force is what causes damage), the adept is therefore applying a force in the opposite direction but equal in magnitude (and therefore also negligible).
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Mäx
post Jul 9 2009, 09:50 AM
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QUOTE (Delta56 @ Jul 9 2009, 09:10 AM) *
A 160 pound runner jumping off a a ten story building and landing on the ground is bad, but 12 ranks in feather fall would make the damage negotiable

You do know that adept powers level are limited to adepts magic atribute?
so for freefall 12 the adept needs to be at the minimum sixht level iniate with magic 12.
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DWC
post Jul 9 2009, 10:17 AM
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My kneejerk reaction would be to apply cosmetic falling damage to the surface he lands on for dramatic effect, like caving in the roof of a random car, or shattering the square of sidewalk he lands on, unless he has Traceless Walk. As for landing on people, give him the option of making a melee attack as his action for the round and give him a DV bonus equal to half the falling damage a normal person would sustain for the fall. Unless he's got Traceless Walk. Then he lands dramatically posed atop their head and can remain there completely unnoticed until they see him in their reflection.
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Medicineman
post Jul 9 2009, 11:17 AM
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oh and while we're at it:
How much damage does a Troll do if he lands on somebody
A) from a 3 Meter drop
B) from the 3rd Floor
(The Troll has Raptorlegs)

HokaHey
Medicineman
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DuctShuiTengu
post Jul 9 2009, 11:54 AM
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As I see it, there's 4 possible explanations, assuming the normal force of falling is F, and the change caused by feather fall is A (so, the impact suffered by the adept is F-A):

1) Feather Fall reduces the force for all parties involved. Thing landed on suffers (F-A) impact.

2) Feather Fall reduces the effective force for the adept. Thing landed on suffers (F) impact.

3) Feather Fall redirects the force away from the adept. Thing landed on suffers (F+A) impact.

4) Feather Fall does not change the force of impact for anyone involved, it merely makes the adept very good at landing in ways that don't hurt as much. Thing landed on suffers (F) impact.


Now, of these, 2 and 3 violate Newtonian Physics. That said, this being magic at work here, I don't consider that to be enough to remove them from the list of possible options entirely. Which one to go with depends on what's the best fit for the game, the adept in question, and how concerned the GM is by the possibility of someone abusing option 3 as an anti-tank weapon. The one thing I would advise against (though this is just personal preference) is allowing the adept to switch between these interpretations (possibly allow this as an additional power).

In terms of game mechanics, F would be the standard amount of damage for a fall of that distance, while A is the amount this is reduced by Feather Fall. While slightly unrealistic, I wouldn't recommend trying to adjust things to fix the fact that a gnome falling 10 feet onto a giant causes the same damage as the giant falling 10 feet onto the gnome; it's too much added hassle for too little reward. Take a shot to celebrate your game once again violating physics and go back to playing.
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Stahlseele
post Jul 9 2009, 12:48 PM
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WHY do people insist on bringing PHYSICS into a discussion about MAGICS?
Make something up as you go along. It's magic. Deal with it <.< . .
If we are at Physics, how does the Adept not go SPLAT on WHATEVER he lands with that Distance?
Also: Standing on the Head of someone is completely awesome silly! ^^
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Dr Funfrock
post Jul 9 2009, 12:49 PM
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QUOTE (DWC @ Jul 9 2009, 05:17 AM) *
My kneejerk reaction would be to apply cosmetic falling damage to the surface he lands on for dramatic effect, like caving in the roof of a random car, or shattering the square of sidewalk he lands on, unless he has Traceless Walk. As for landing on people, give him the option of making a melee attack as his action for the round and give him a DV bonus equal to half the falling damage a normal person would sustain for the fall. Unless he's got Traceless Walk. Then he lands dramatically posed atop their head and can remain there completely unnoticed until they see him in their reflection.


This is my favourite response, and the interpretation that I'll be using, because it's COOL!

Yes, it completely violates Newtonian physics, and I'm sorry but if adept powers don't allow me to that, what the hell am I paying for? It also encourages the player to use the power creatively, and retains a magical feel that keeps it distinct from the more mundane and technological approaches. Winner.
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Jaid
post Jul 9 2009, 10:11 PM
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QUOTE (Dr Funfrock @ Jul 9 2009, 08:49 AM) *
Yes, it completely violates Newtonian physics, and I'm sorry but if adept powers don't allow me to that, what the hell am I paying for?


newtonian physics also says that you should be falling with an acceleration of (approximately) 9.81 m/s^2 towards the earth, and that when you hit the ground you're going to have to dissipate energy equal to 1/2mV^2 (or, to put it another way, you're going to experience a force based on your deceleration from whatever rate you were falling at to 0).

the power makes you not do that. it already violates newtonian physics just by making you not dead when you fall from 12 meters up onto a concrete surface. that's what you're paying for.
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Dr Funfrock
post Jul 10 2009, 02:02 AM
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QUOTE (Jaid @ Jul 9 2009, 05:11 PM) *
newtonian physics also says that you should be falling with an acceleration of (approximately) 9.81 m/s^2 towards the earth, and that when you hit the ground you're going to have to dissipate energy equal to 1/2mV^2 (or, to put it another way, you're going to experience a force based on your deceleration from whatever rate you were falling at to 0).

the power makes you not do that. it already violates newtonian physics just by making you not dead when you fall from 12 meters up onto a concrete surface. that's what you're paying for.


A perfectly reasonable answer, and a perfectly valid interpretation of the rules.

Also, BORING!

--EDIT--

Random heckling aside, the "doesn't violate Newtonian physics interpretation would be that the power slows your descent to a safe speed. But again, boring.
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Jaid
post Jul 10 2009, 04:05 AM
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alright, let's look at this from a perspective of "what is the power supposed to do" then.

is the power intended to make you punch harder? kick people into the ground so far you don't need to dig a grave? kung fu their way through the roof of a building through each intervening floor and finally into the basement? no. it's designed to make you not die when you jump from high places to low places. if the power was called "thor shot" or "death from above" then i would be totally in favor of it allowing you destroy things by jumping on them from above. but it isn't. that's not what it's intended for.
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McAllister
post Jul 10 2009, 04:08 AM
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New assignment; design "Thor Shot."
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toolbox
post Jul 10 2009, 04:15 AM
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Mario jump!
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Jaid
post Jul 10 2009, 04:15 AM
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QUOTE (McAllister @ Jul 10 2009, 12:08 AM) *
New assignment; design "Thor Shot."

by this time tomorrow, i expect to see a final fantasy dragoon archetype =P
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Zaranthan
post Jul 10 2009, 05:10 AM
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Oh, gods, not again.
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BishopMcQ
post Jul 10 2009, 06:44 AM
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Thor Shot -- 350P (-1/meter) AP - 0
Cost: 50,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)
Availability: 32F
Note: Requires Orbital Firing Platform to be launched
Laser guided, scatters 20d6 meters, -1 meter per net hit
Without Laser Guidance, scatters 50d6 meters, -1 meter per net hit
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WyldKnight
post Jul 10 2009, 07:11 AM
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QUOTE (BishopMcQ @ Jul 9 2009, 11:44 PM) *
Thor Shot -- 350P (-1/meter) AP - 0
Cost: 50,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)
Availability: 32F
Note: Requires Orbital Firing Platform to be launched
Laser guided, scatters 20d6 meters, -1 meter per net hit
Without Laser Guidance, scatters 50d6 meters, -1 meter per net hit


I'm not going to lie, my pants got a little tighter thinking of that.
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Draco18s
post Jul 10 2009, 03:34 PM
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QUOTE (BishopMcQ @ Jul 10 2009, 02:44 AM) *
Thor Shot -- 350P (-1/meter) AP - 0
Cost: 50,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)
Availability: 32F
Note: Requires Orbital Firing Platform to be launched
Laser guided, scatters 20d6 meters, -1 meter per net hit
Without Laser Guidance, scatters 50d6 meters, -1 meter per net hit


Ammo type: large hammers? anvils?

No, can't be an anvil firing device, that's T.A.T.T.L.E.

(Link to reference, start at the second post, I unfortunately can't find the post being quoted, but the thread is worth a read)
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Jaid
post Jul 10 2009, 07:44 PM
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QUOTE (Draco18s @ Jul 10 2009, 11:34 AM) *
Ammo type: large hammers? anvils?

No, can't be an anvil firing device, that's T.A.T.T.L.E.

(Link to reference, start at the second post, I unfortunately can't find the post being quoted, but the thread is worth a read)

cows, of course. what else would you launch?
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Stahlseele
post Jul 10 2009, 08:25 PM
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Tungsten Telephone Poles
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Draco18s
post Jul 10 2009, 11:23 PM
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QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jul 10 2009, 04:25 PM) *


Obviously. The rest of us were being silly.
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Stahlseele
post Jul 10 2009, 11:32 PM
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Had to use the chance to actually use the term "Tungsten Telephone Poles" in propper context once ^^
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DuctShuiTengu
post Jul 11 2009, 12:01 AM
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QUOTE (Jaid @ Jul 10 2009, 06:05 AM) *
alright, let's look at this from a perspective of "what is the power supposed to do" then.

is the power intended to make you punch harder? kick people into the ground so far you don't need to dig a grave? kung fu their way through the roof of a building through each intervening floor and finally into the basement? no. it's designed to make you not die when you jump from high places to low places. if the power was called "thor shot" or "death from above" then i would be totally in favor of it allowing you destroy things by jumping on them from above. but it isn't. that's not what it's intended for.

This is why I suggested disallowing said option if your players were likely to abuse it. If the increased impact from falling is mostly going to result in very cinematic smashed up sections of sidewalk and crushed parked cars, go for it. If once or twice the adept drops from the roof onto the enemies to flatten them, it's probably still okay. If they're using jumping on people as a substitute for actual combat powers, no.
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Kerenshara
post Jul 11 2009, 02:23 AM
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QUOTE (Dr Funfrock @ Jul 9 2009, 07:49 AM) *
This is my favourite response, and the interpretation that I'll be using, because it's COOL!

Yes, it completely violates Newtonian physics, and I'm sorry but if adept powers don't allow me to that, what the hell am I paying for? It also encourages the player to use the power creatively, and retains a magical feel that keeps it distinct from the more mundane and technological approaches. Winner.

I am forcibly reminded of a scene from the movie Ultraviolet where Violet leaps off the top of the Research Facility of the Ministry of Later Day Medical Defense and lands in a crouch shattering the concrete. Now, to keep it from turning into a CBT DFA I would never have that "damage" apply to things the adept WANTS to break.
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Alexand
post Jul 11 2009, 03:48 AM
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Gah, I remember playing Syndicate Wars for the PC, on the Syndicate side you could get a weapon exactly like the Thor shot. I forget what it's called, anyone else remember this?

God I loved that game (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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