Flying around Seattle, In what, please? Options

[LurkerOutThere]

Another option for short-range air transport would be the various sorts of airship (dirigibles, blimps, and lifting bodies). Though they lack speed, they do provide reduced fuel costs (since most don't have to land to disembark passengers - instead, docking at the upper floors of the various high-rise buildings which usually already have their own helipad anyway) and infrastructure requirements (an airship dock requires much less space, staff, and facilities than an airstrip).

Plus airships are just cool.

Actually thinking about it assuming future construction materials the idea of an airbus int he form of a blimp really makes a lot of sense. Especially for my Omaha setting, where subways aren't feasible due to our water-table. Plus it makes for some neat visuals.

[imperialus]

A big problem with things like tilt wings and the like is that they're big. Even the BA690 has a wingspan of 60 feet, meaning it could just (and only just) cram itself onto a helicopter landing pad. Tilt wings (by all accounts I've heard) are a bitch to fly that make conventional helicopters look like driving a car. I suppose things like pilot programs would make life a helluva lot easier but still you'd be looking at a fairly small percentage of the population who have pilot licenses who can actually keep the damn things from splattering Mr. CEO all over the tarmac.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

..so nobody actuall read the description of the Huges Aerospace Emblem. Goe figure.

[MJBurrage]

For something more like an actual taxi, one would still need a flying car. While these have been pictured in Shadowrun art, they have not been described to my knowledge.

The Hughes Aerospace Emblem (Shuttle Helicopter) seems like the closest thing in Shadowrun to a flying taxi service, although more like a small high-end flying bus.

One thing that bugs me about the Emblem; the description says "ducted props" (note plural), but the drawing shows a conventional helicopter main rotor-blade. From just the description I would have imagined something more like the three-ducted-fan machines called hunter-killers in Terminator.

By the time of Shadowrun, there should be a practical working model of something like the Moller Skycar or the UA X-Hawk. Even so I would imagine it would be limited to the very rich and professionals (like limo and taxi drivers).

The following is from some of my favorite fiction, which I had always meant to stat-out for Shadowrun.
Chandler MetalSmith Mark III (from Emerald Eyes page 91 & The Long Run page 111)

• hovercar (10–40 cm above ground) circa 2060’s
• outer skin may change color as owner desires
• canopy, hinge forward
• soft brown leather interior
• seats 4 (6 if friendly)
• top speed 440 kph (with six seventy kilo occupants)
• six fans underneath for ground effect
• row of three rear turbojets for flight
• retractable wings (skips at 180 w/wings, 220 w/o)
• airscoop and rocket brakes
• airscoop fed ramjets for flight
• stabilize with wings and fans
• driver optional gyroscope system (hard to flip over)
• carcomp w/ infochip and 260-page printed manual
• class C autopilot
• cannot climb straight up, but can gain 300 meters in a two-square-block diameter loop.

[HappyDaze]

By the time of Shadowrun, there should be a practical working model of something like

IRL, one of my best friends grew up in the 60s and he's pissed that everyone doesn't have those flying cars on limitless fuel that were supposed to be possible within 20 years. It's been twice that, and we're really no closer. I doubt SR is any different; after all - they just got WiFi in the late 2060s...

[Method]

Sure they have flying cars. They look just like THIS. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Rotbart van Dain...]

One thing that bugs me about the Emblem; the description says "ducted props" (note plural), but the drawing shows a conventional helicopter main rotor-blade.

Yet anothre case of: Artist didn't bother reading.

[Zaranthan]

I don't think the artists read the material as printed, they get a request for a specific type of image. If they asked for a "flying car", that's a perfectly fine interpretation.

[InfinityzeN]

Yea, you would think that a ducted prop heli would be the way to go. A true ducted prop would not have any external rotors and the "pods" are smaller then a traditional rotor due to the improved lift from the ducting.

[ICPiK]

My good friend and fellow runner, who plays the rigger in our game found a pretty sweet build working with our GM. Believe he took a seacop boat frame and hull and converted it to a armored lighter than air vehicle. Sounds ridiculous, but if you look @ boeings new builds it does look like a hard shell with a boat hull below it. He loaded it up with max sig masking and chameleon coating and the things so quite it been getting us all over the place. Slow speed though like 35 but if you cant be seen you don't need to run. Just thought I'd mention it as a mod for any vehicle for inner city shuttling.

[MJBurrage]

Sure they have flying cars. They look just like THIS [cover of New Seattle]. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

That's the exact image I was thinking of when I said that while never being given stats, Shadowrun did have a working flying car in the vein of the Moller Skycar or the UA X-Hawk.

Specifically the image is pretty clearly a functional four-seat Skycar M400.

So Shadowrun does have flying cars, but they are apparently very rare.

I would think one type would be the Skycar pictured (tilt-rotor), and another would be a car sized Thunderbird. The latter could be a Harpy Scout (see Rigger 3) with offensive weapons removed to allow for a four-seat configuration, even allowing for price decreases from civilian scale production, were still talking a price over 1,000,000 ¥.

[kigmatzomat]

Here are a couple of helicopters from wikipedia. I recommend using Arsenal/SR4 stats and just choosing one of these for the dimensions. You can mine the wiki for little factoids that will make it come to life more.

fyi, here's a small chopper often used by executives and medevac:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurocopter_EC...2.2B.2FT2.2B.29
It could land on a 4-lane road (standard lane ~12 ft/4m) or most parking lots.

Here's a more powerful coast guard search & rescue chopper, probably on par with the Emblem
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HH-65_Dolphin...ns_.28HH-65C.29
It could land on a 6-lane road or any parking lot with at least 3 rows of cars.

A petite 5-seater that could land on a 3 lane road and almost any parking lot
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MD_Helicopters_MD_500

[Kerenshara]

OK, a couple of observations and general comments:

First, tilt-wing concepts were largely invalidated for structural (strength and weight) issues after the successful demonstration of the XV-15 prototype that was later scaled up into the V-22 Osprey. The diference being that the entire engine nacelle and powerplant rotate together, as opposed to the older concept of tilting just the rotor heads (via a troublesome gearing system) and leaving the wing itself still structurally fixed to the fuselage. When speaking about tilt-rotors, the statistic you need to be examining most closely isn't "wingspan" but "rotorspan" - the maximum distance from rotor-tip to rotor-tip. These things are often a lot "wider" than they are "long".

Second, LTA (Lighter Than Air) transports for intra-city transport are a BAD idea. Bad, as in dangerous. Multi-hundred-thousand tonne super-jumbo jets have to be mindful of crosswinds on landing and wind-shear in flight. LTA vehicles have a dramatically higher vulnerability to wind forces than their conventional flight brethren, and per-unit of payload, are far larger in absolute terms. These two things combine to mean that a) you'd have trouble moving around/landing between buildings and 2) with the crazy and often unpredictable wind currents between buildings in a modern city, it would be DANGEROUS to try to maneuver even if you could fit in the first place. These would ONLY be an option to dock after Inter-city transport over long distances to top floors of tall towers. Finally, they're very slow compared to nearly ANY other form of air transport.

Third, to the comments about VTOL being "short ranged" and "fuel hogs": only if it's direct thust lifting. With any kind of prop (be they ducted or non), liftoff power isn't that much significantly higher than full speed cruise. VTOL can take a lot of forms, the most efficient probably being tilt-rotors, but they aren't particularly compact to get down to steet level. For that, you're looking for something with multiple ducted fans/props. There was a FUNCTIONAL ducted fan car that flew with a conventional piston engine in the late 1990s, but it wasn't particularly practical or that safe to the average user. Adding cheap and reliable fly-by-wire controls and combining more modern light-weight aerospace composites with advanced fan blade/shroud design and advanced power plants (Those laser satchel charges are more than dense enough to provide a couple of hundred kilometers of range to a tandem two-seat air-car.) would give you a reliable, relatively inexpensive air-car. This is a case, however, where I don't think (game mechanics aside) that the provision of (even 6^th World advanced) solar cells is going to be able to add significantly to range/endurance, as the power needs of these craft are exponentially higher than simple ground vehicles. And as to the comment about tilt-rotors being hard to pilot, I would like to know where that's from, because the V-22 Osprey reportedly is actually EASIER to take off and land than a conventional airplane, because you simply rotate the nacelles to vertical (automated process over 15 seconds), which drops your air speed, and then you just use your "rudder" pedals to point the nose and ease off the power until you settle, or in reverse, add power until you're airborne then rotate the nacelles and by the time you're horizontal, you're well above stall speed and accelerating, at which point the aircraft is flown and performs EXACTLY like a twin engine turboprop aircraft (Thanks to the advanced fly-by-wire computerized controlls); Conventional aircraft have to go through complex evolutions for takeoff and landing including configuration of the flaps, a step which has caused MANY fatal crashes over the history of flight, as well as flare and braking on landing, none of which a tilt-rotor has to contend with.

Fouth, a helicopter with a ducted main rotor? Um, ok, I guess you could fantasize about it, but it's not plausible.

Fifth, we're back to rotor clearance. Multiple ducted-fan vehicles (four point is preferable) have a significant advantage in that they have great flexibility in terms of engine placement, powerplant choice, and EXTREMELY small clearance requirements compared to full scale rotor-lift vehicles. The fans can operate at MUCH higher RPM, allowing higher pressure and thus lift/speed. Even a small helicopter like the Dauphin mentioned earlier has a forty foot (twelve meter) rotor arc. Even the tiny Hughes MD 500 needs over twenty six feet (eight meters) clearance for it's rotor. That last helicopter earned a reputation for low-level capability in Vietnam where it routinely was able to dip below treetop height in clearings because of its relatively small rotor sweep. A ducted fan vehicle could be even smaller in terms of minimum landing/clearance. And because their fans rotate to horisontal position for foward flight, the ducted-fan vehicle isn't limited in maximum speed by transsonic drag on the advancing rotor blade and retreating blade stall on the trailing blades. THIS is where I see things like DocWagon VTOLs coming in - think something the size of a large van with four ducted (and armored!) fans, running on fuel cells and batteries to be pretty close to silent (for an aircraft on landing), swooping in to pick up wounded clients (once they get off corporate property) in an HTR situation. The door slides open (ala Vietnam Huey) as the combat medics rush toward their client, then they drag them back (safer to run without stooping because the blades are enclosed here) and lifting back off.

Sixth, LAV's. There was another thread on this, but LAV's are going to have a VERY high stall speed (at least from the perspective of trying to navigate the streets of a city), and thus would have to rely on their lifting thrust ability constantly. THIS is where range goes to drek. Since we don't have any hard numbers on a) the true height of corporate mega-scrapers in the downtowns and b) we don't know what the real service ceiling is on a LAV, we can't say if they could just lift and scoot quick-like across the city at just above rooftop heights and then land.

Finally, direct thrust non-aerofoil vehicles, referred to in other games/universes as Aerodynes. Usually depicted like a cross between a tilt-rotor and a multi-point ducted fan vehicle, where turbofan engines replace rotors for lift power. Even in foward "flight" such vehicles are relying on their engines for the vast majority of their lift to stay airborne. These beasties are ALWAYS a fuel hog, but they have the advantages of a tilt-rotor, but are faster; they pay for that speed with a DRAMATIC loss of range. I have never seen a reference in canon to such a machine in the 6^th World, but they are probably around in military/elite corp hands, where astronomical fuel consumption can be both afforded and rationalized in balance to speed. The problem with THESE vehicles is you've got EXTREMELY hot jet exhaust all around the vehicle if you mean to embark/debark with a hot touchdown, so entry and exit strategies will be a major consideration.

Anyway, that's my two centi-nuyenn on the topic. Take it for what it's worth.

[DireRadiant]

Dragons, Immortal Elves, various AIs, and the metaplanar spirits mock attempts to discount ducted rotor lift devices.

Just dikote it all. It'll fly.

[Kerenshara]

Dragons, Immortal Elves, various AIs, and the metaplanar spirits mock attempts to discount ducted rotor lift devices.

Just dikote it all. It'll fly.

Note, it's not a ducted fan (rotor, turbine, whatever) that I'm objecting to - my problem is with the idea of a SINGLE ducted rotor to provide lift AND thrust. Any multiple above two is theoretically possible, but three or more is the practical lower limit. Four gives you a stable maneuvering platform.

[Falconer]

Depends... I could use a single ducted fan similar to the harrier.
There's not a lot of difference between your suggestion and multi-point vectored thrust.

Use it to feed multiple vents which provide your thrust points...

Also, I'll point at the JSF... where the the VSTOL/VTOL operations utilize a single ducted fan.

Granted I take your meaning on Lift&Thrust... together.

[Kerenshara]

Depends... I could use a single ducted fan similar to the harrier.
There's not a lot of difference between your suggestion and multi-point vectored thrust.

Use it to feed multiple vents which provide your thrust points...

Also, I'll point at the JSF... where the the VSTOL/VTOL operations utilize a single ducted fan.

Granted I take your meaning on Lift&Thrust... together.

I went over most of this in the LAV thread a while back, but do note, I'm talking about a "helicopter" here with a "Ducted" main rotor as was mentioned elsewhere in the thread; It's just not practical.

And I'm also not talking about the SOURCE of the air, since both of the aircraft mentioned STILL fall under "direct thrust lift" - The F/A-35 uses a shaft-driven ducted (internal) fan for part of its lift, but it also vectors the FULL thrust from the engine exhaust downwards at a 90 degree angle, so that's technically two "lift points", while the harrier doesn't get it's power from a fan exclusively, either; The Pegasus engine has a massive high-bypass first stage compressor which feeds the two foward nozzles with "cold" air, while the engine's FULL exaust thrust is directed through the two nozzles mouted further aft. The FOUR "lift points" are clustered around the aircraft's center of gravity. So they both still fall under my description, except I was talking about not using ANY form of direct thrust lifting when I was describing ducted-fan vehicles.

[Method]

Necro-shazam!!

[edit: this would also make an awesome concept design for a smuggling LAV.]

[MikeKozar]

Just wanted to point something out...I was using a SkyTrain for some mercs in my game, and something familiar in the description caught my eye - 'mid-range transport'. It's a highly modifiable transport with a large rear hatch and two big VTOL rotors on stubby wing mounts. Although it's not explicitly listed, it can also provide a bonus to the Negotiation skill...

(Captured thug is addressed by team's Faceman)
"Now, this is all the money Mr. Johnson gave us in advance. You bring it back to him. Tell him the job didn't work out. We're not thieves. But we are thieves. Point is, we're not takin' what's his. Now we'll stay out of his way as best we can from here on in. You explain that's best for everyone, okay?"

(Thug gets to his feet and sneers)
"Keep the money. Use it to buy a funeral. It doesn't matter where you go or how far you fly. I will hunt you down, and the last thing you see will be my blade."

Faceman: "Darn."
(Kicks thug into spinning SkyTrain turboprop; thug dies horribly)

(Next bad guy is brought forward)
"Now, this is all the money Mr. Johnson gave us in advance..."

"Oh, I get it. I'm good. Best thing for everyone. I'm right there with ya."

[Moirdryd]

Hugh's Stallion anyone?... You know the Helicopter Ambulance used by Doc Wagon (at least in the 2050's-60's) for all manner of rapid response scenarios. I know that in New Seattle, Sprawl Survival Guide and stuff the Air Taxi service wanst cheap and was often a Corp Exec type of deal. Typically it would run from Helipad to helipad and it was something not dissimilar to the Hugh's mentioned aboved. It's certainly not something you'd be able to get from the average street corner to the local stuffershack. But eitherway, by all accounts the Air Taxi service was basically helicopters.

[crash2029]

I still think that a Rotodyne modified to 207x specs would be cool. Instead of a main rotor disc, ducted fans at the wingtips.