Noob players and Mages, What are cool things you have done? Options

[thelovedr]

Hey guys, this is my first post here. I just started in SR4 (with limited exp in Shadowrun in general) and I'm playing a mage. Im having lots of fun with my char but there is so much to mages that it seems like I'm not even scratching the surface. I have a couple questions, and I would appreciate it if you would lend your expertise.

1) Why go astral? It seems like you can get most things you need done just by perceiving.

2) Some people on the forums here said that mana bolt is a MUST for mages. Why is that?

3) Mages seem like they really shine when they creatively use their spells and spirits. What are some combos that I should consider?

4) Am I such a noob that I'm not asking the right questions? What else should I do/know?

Thanks in advance, ya'll rock my face off!

[Mr. Mage]

ok, here's my two cents:

1) Astral Projection, at least in comparison to Astral Perception, is good because you can go anywhere, unconstrained by your physical body. Say you need to scout the top of a 40 story building, and you're physical body can't get up there. Then just project!

2) Mana Bolt is great for one reason: Direct Mana Spell. That means that unless they have counterspelling, all they resist damage with is Willpower, nothing else, no Armor, nothing else. The only problem is that it works against living guys only....so no blowing up a freaking door or anything like that.

3) Combos? Depends on you're play style...personally, I really love using Spirits to one up our Street Sammy...which is really fun...hehe...

4) One thing to keep in mind is to have a good Willpower and whatever mental stat your tradition uses....because Drain is not fun. It is the great equalizer because you may be able to kill with thought, but that doesn't really help if it kills you too. Also, make sure you have something to defend yourself with that ISN'T magic, like a gun. Just for when magic fails you or isn't the right thing to use.

Pretty much, play the character, and figure out what works for you. Suggestions are great, but figuring out your own style is definitely very satisfying.

[sylvanis]

Using magic fingers to pull the pin on a grenade hanging on someones vest? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Maelstrome]

what i did to get the most out of my magic shadow running career were custom spell design and enchanting. then again i play sr3 and from what ive heard enchanting isnt so easy anymore in sr4. still you can fool around with custom spells. i have a few for when i played sr4. my gm was fine with them but yours might not be.

[kzt]

Stun ball/stun bolt is almost always better then mana bolt/ball. You can make unconscious people dead easily, reviving the dead ones is not so easy. And the drain is lower and it has a similar effect on spirits.

[Ravor]

Something to consider is that you are always better off using bioware for your extra IPs, carving out your natural eyes and getting chrome ones, and making damn sure that you can still help the team if for whatever reason it isn't a good idea to use your mojo.

[Mr. Mage]

what i did to get the most out of my magic shadow running career were custom spell design and enchanting. then again i play sr3 and from what ive heard enchanting isnt so easy anymore in sr4. still you can fool around with custom spells. i have a few for when i played sr4. my gm was fine with them but yours might not be.

Yea...we actually started borrowing some SR3 stuff just for enchanting. They really seem to discourage it in SR4 by making it so limited and costly

[McAllister]

Mr. Mage, I'm unfamiliar with enchanting in SR3. All I know is SR4, where it seems to be a very skill-, time- and reagent-intensive. What have you borrowed, and how does it work in SR4?

[Mr. Mage]

Well...in SR4, the real big part we disliked is that it pretty much all comes down to a focus for an awakened character....but what if I want to make a magic flashlight, all it does is act like a normal flashlight. No rules for this. There isn't really much on how to do this in SR3 either, but there are a few other things we've been looking into to figure it out. I can't really cite some specific SR3 stuff right now, but when/if I can, I will.

Also, don't come back to me on stuff like "Anchoring" and stuff...because that costs lots of Karma, and how hard should a frikin flashlight be to make, huh?

[McAllister]

I agree about anchoring! It just feels like spending Karma on something that's going to get dispelled or lose to an astral barrier sooner or later, especially if a mundane is just carrying it around.

It would be better if the rules went into more detail on, say, spirits inhabiting/possessing items. Maybe the "spirit community" would be offended and see this as slavery, but I can definitely imagine a hermetic magician binding a minor fire spirit into a sword (or anything, really) to have the effect of creating a glowing sword, even though IIRC the only effect would be raising the durability (and maybe DV) of the sword. Maybe you could say that such a thing wouldn't cost any karma, but you'd need a refined reagent or whatever to bind the spirit and achieve this effect (but without the "raises physical attributes by force" normally associated with spirit possessing items).

[thelovedr]

Mr Mage, Maelstrome, Ravor and Kzt, thanks so much for your input. Our GM has five shadowrun virgins, and we have the finesse of a pack of paranas. Going astral is definitely going to help.

Using magic fingers to pull the pin on a grenade hanging on someones vest? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

This is friggin genius! I love the idea of blowing people up with their own stuff. You sir are a ninja!

[EnlitenedDespot]

Well, for attack spells:

Powerbolt, Manabolt, Stunbolt, and their -ball equivalents are all direct damage spells (meaning target just resists with only Willpower).

If I'm not mistaken, Powerbolt has a slightly higher drain code than Manabolt, although it is "P" damage and a physical spell. Being physical means you can really shoot at anything with it (although you have to overcome object resistance if it's not alive), although you can't use it on astral enemies.

Manabolt/ball do "P" damage (like Powerbolt) but it's a 'mana' spell, meaning it can only target living opponents, although it can be shot at astral opponents. It's drain code is also slightly lower than Powerbolt.

Stunbolt/ball do "S" damage and are mana spells. They have a lower drain code than manabolt, although enemies can use things like Slap patches to negate wound penalties. I don't know if "S" damage can actually be healed in combat any faster than "P" damage (being able to heal "S" damage by the hour as opposed to days or whatever is not something I'm thinking about in regards to the enemy Corp Security getting healed up, since I'm not planning on being around for an hour after fighting him). Some characters also have larger stun damage tracks as opposed to physical damage tracks, ie, enemy mages, so manabolt may be > stunbolt for enemy mages. For that hulking troll with the cyber arms and the assault cannon strapped to his chest, stunbolt may actually kill that guy quicker.

Also, in my opinion, unconscious enemy security guards leaves less concern on the part of the corp for follow-up as compared to ruthlessly slaughtered enemy security guards, although I guess if you steal their hot new prototype that everyone wants it's not going to matter either way...

I think the strengths in magic lie in utility, not necessarily damage (although Force 9 Stunballs can be 'problematic' or 'awesome' depending on who's using them).

Lastly, your main ceiling on your ability is your Willpower+Drain Attribute (Logic, Intuition, or Charism based on your chosen tradition). Most characters at least fairly early on aren't going to have more than 9-10 dice to resist drain, meaning that you're left with not wanting drain codes higher than 3 on most spells you cast. This leaves a bit of a problem, too, as sometimes you'll roll 5 hits (resisting all 3 drain), but other times you'll roll 1 hit, taking 2S damage. Even with a drain code of 3 on every spell you cast AND 9-10 drain resistance dice, you will still end up with drain damage here and there. Better bring along some slap patches and if reasonable a medkit (and/or first aid skill, if you can get a smattering of it and are a Logic-based tradition).

[EnlitenedDespot]

Oh, and to be honest I don't see a Sustaining Focus Rank 4 (Health) or higher with Increase Reflexes (the spell) to be so problematic as to warrant bioware.

Synaptic Boosters are expensive as all hell, and losing 1.5 Essence for your 3 extra IPs is not a great go-to move, in my opinion.

Cybereyes are pretty awesome for raw usefulness (I'd personally have more of a problem scooping out my eyeballs for 'new ones' as opposed to even replacing an arm, even). I find contact lenses and/or glasses to work fine for a mage's vision enhancement needs, however, although cybereyes hold a raw advantage over the essence-free alternative regarding spell targeting.

Additionally, in chargen 160k for 2 extra IPs and 1 Essence loss (Synaptic Boosters 2) will cost you 32 BP. That's hefty for an awakened build, even an adept (although it seems a much better option for an adept compared to using 2.5 magic for 2 extra IPs, bah).

I think a combination of practicality and/or concept is what needs to be considered for 'ware or no ware. My recommendations would be to stick to bioware as much as possible and be very, very careful of how much your magical ability is or is not hindered by the new 'upgrades.'

[Ravor]

Glowing like a Christmas Tree on the Astral is a really, really bad idea, not to mention wards, background counts, having to soak drain all of the time, and Foci Addiction. Nah, stick with bioware, it's expensive but has less drawbacks.

[Machiavelli]

Initate quick and go on until you gain the improved masking matatechnique. Then all these problems are gone and you don´t have to deal with the disadvantages of losing magic by ´ware. It´s long time solution, but worth it. You will kick your ass if you could have 3 IP´s by a good "increased reflexes"-spell after having a booster-ware implanted.

[McAllister]

@EnlitenedDespot: Physical spells (even direct combat ones) such as powerbolt are resisted with pure body, actually. That's the trade-off for being able to target objects. Also, anyone without counterspelling/magical guard is going to fall to a reasonable mage pretty quick, but add 3 or 4 dice to the resistance and things don't look quite so gloomy for the target.

Oh my. I just had an interesting idea. Is there any good way to implement some ability (SURGE mutation, metavariant, spirit power, manatech etc.) that would cause anybody casting direct spells at the target to take additional drain?

@Ravor: What do you mean by having to soak drain all of the time? IIRC, once you slap a spell into the focus, you can turn it on and off when necessary (hopefully off sometimes for that addiction problem, and to glow less), although even if it's off a good background count or ward will disrupt it.

[Ravor]

Machiavelli sorry but although Masking/Extended Masking would keep you from sticking out like a sore thumb on the Astral it's "help" against wards is largely theorical in nature and dangerous to use and does nothing against the other problems I've mentioned.

McAllister nope, you have to cast the spell each time you turn the foci on and off, Sustaining Foci are only useful to avoid the -2 Mod.

[Octopiii]

Glowing like a Christmas Tree on the Astral is a really, really bad idea, not to mention wards, background counts, having to soak drain all of the time, and Foci Addiction. Nah, stick with bioware, it's expensive but has less drawbacks.

That's a silly assertion.

1.Why is glowing in the astral terrible?

2. What's wrong with re-casting a spell after you pass through wards? Drain for a Force 4 Imp. Reflexes is only 4 dice - beatable, especially if you use a fetish. Likely, you will only suffer one point of stun, which is a very acceptable compromise for +3ip.

3. Foci Addiction is easily beaten with a high willpower stat (which your mage will have). If you don't buy the negative quality and your gm starts throwing addiction tests at you regularly, your gm is being a Dick.

[Meatbag]

Cybereyes are usually too good NOT to take, unless you plan on being a summoning specialist or possessed gunslinger. Direct Combat Spells are far and away better than Indirect ones for the above-mentioned reasons, and they need line of sight (and ONLY line of sight).

With that out of the way, the only question is what you're going to fill the rest of that Essence point with.

As to cool tricks? Get a sustaining focus or have a spirit cast/sustain Extended Mindnet. Mindnets can't be hacked, only shut down, and counterspelling tends to hurt more than jamming.

Your paranoid team will thank you.

[The Jake]

Cybereyes are usually too good NOT to take, unless you plan on being a summoning specialist or possessed gunslinger. Direct Combat Spells are far and away better than Indirect ones for the above-mentioned reasons, and they need line of sight (and ONLY line of sight).

With that out of the way, the only question is what you're going to fill the rest of that Essence point with.

As to cool tricks? Get a sustaining focus or have a spirit cast/sustain Extended Mindnet. Mindnets can't be hacked, only shut down, and counterspelling tends to hurt more than jamming.

Your paranoid team will thank you.

I must have missed something... why are cybereyes required for a summoning specialist? If anything, they are more relevant to a spellcaster (as opposed to summoner) because of the way spell targeting works.

In the past I have preferred cybereyes too on all my combat mages but contacts take out a lot of the necessity to be honest. Unless you need an insane number of modifications.

- J.

[HappyDaze]

Mana Bolt is great for one reason: Direct Mana Spell. That means that unless they have counterspelling, all they resist damage with is Willpower, nothing else, no Armor, nothing else.

IIRC, as of SR4A/latest errata, you can also add in cover modifiers to your resistance roll against direct spells.

[Mr. Mage]

I must have missed something... why are cybereyes required for a summoning specialist? If anything, they are more relevant to a spellcaster (as opposed to summoner) because of the way spell targeting works.

In the past I have preferred cybereyes too on all my combat mages but contacts take out a lot of the necessity to be honest. Unless you need an insane number of modifications.

- J.

His wording seems a little confusing, but I think he's saying it is a good idea to take cybereyes unless you are a summoning specialist, in shich case they aren't as advantageous. I had some trouble reading it too.

[Mr. Mage]

Mr Mage, Maelstrome, Ravor and Kzt, thanks so much for your input. Our GM has five shadowrun virgins, and we have the finesse of a pack of paranas. Going astral is definitely going to help.



This is friggin genius! I love the idea of blowing people up with their own stuff. You sir are a ninja!

oh, and btw: You're very welcome!

And please note, pirhanas may not be very finessed, but they damn well get the job done...hehe (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

[Ravor]

Octopiii you're kidding right? You honestly don't understand why glowing on the Astral is a very bad thing? As for drain, it is always better not to chance taking drain and posibily having to deal with wound mods. And as for addiction tests, I'd say that if you are using foci most of the time and your DM doesn't make you test for addiction then he/she is simply babying you and your foolishness.

[Octopiii]

I am very serious. Please enlighten me.

A chance for 1 stun box (maybe) in exchange for 4 ip's? Yes please.

If your dm is making you test for addiction every session without you having taken the negative quality, then yes, he is being a dick. Besides, the write up for foci addiction doesn't even get into what threshold the addiction test is. Shall we start making numbers up?