slow games and the people that make it happen. Options

[Maelstrome]

one of my friends runs sr4. he stopped running because his group takes forever to do anything. they argue about who should do what and whos idea is best. they have no team cohesion. it got to the point where a run that should have only taken 3-4 hours went unfinished after 7-8 hours of play and had to be picked up later for another 4-5 hours.
the gm had planned 12 mission it took them 6 sessions to do 2 of them. those sessions where over the course of one month. the gm was fed up with it and quit. i suggested to the gm that he take a prewritten adventure and run it for his normal group and then run it for me and my friend to see which group did it faster. when the group started my friend and i were in that group but we quit due to "conflicting interests". the gm declined the idea. later the friend had the idea that we play the part of recurring antagonists or rivals to his current team in an attempt to straighten them out.we are making our new characters and will probably play later this week or next week.

anyway, what would you do if your players were like this? how would you handle another team playing recurring baddies in your game?

[Riki]

From what ive seen slow games tend to happen now and then, but if it happens every time then its a chain of events that occur that can be easily stopped as long as it quits being brought up. When our slow games happen its usually because we are overanalysing the scenerio and our B&E plan turns into a full Military Orders brief with maps plans and cordinations.

(We are going into my opinion about the situation so dont flame me lol)

From what ive seen keeping things simple makes things smooth. The GM should make the run so players A have situation B and they decide to do C. They should have as many clues as possible that all point in the same direction (or a missleading direction for fun spy adventures) so it moves the story along. If they start over analysing just kinda nudge them along with npc assistance or whatever.

Anyway thats my 2 cents, i prolly just rambled on about nothing lol

As for reoccuring baddies, should just leave that to NPC's. PC's who tend to play a bad guy usually die.... and not the dead kind that you go to a hospital and they make a clone of you. Afterwords peoples feelings tend to get hurt that their baddie is dead... blah blah... you know the deal

[Maelstrome]

i see where you are coming from. if it was slow because of over thinking it would be fine. if it was slow because its complex it would be fine. thing is its run of the mill stuff. ive watched them play. the main thing slowing them is arguments about who has the best plan. the worst instance, the came to a door and argued for 45 minutes on how to open it, if the should open it.it was a normal door and on the other side were a few goons and the target.

as far as the two of us playing baddies. we dont care if we get killed in the game. we are there more or less to set an example for the group. the mission concept is that both teams are given the same mission through different organizations. basically a race. the gm wants to do it to show his team how they should be cooperating. its not a permanent thing. maybe two or three missions at the most unless his group insists on keeping us in or the gm is having more fun. also we were talking about trying to convince one of them to join us. pretty much the gm is tired of his current group and wants to liven it up and speed it up.

[Ravor]

When my players start taking forever to decide what to do it is time to get out the egg timer and remind them that their characters have choosen to "wait and see" but the world at large hasn't.

[crizh]

It has been my experience, over the last twenty years, that Shadowrun has always been a slow game.

Unless you are playing Screaming Neon Pink Mowhawk, Shadowrun is about 90% preparation and planning and 10% decisive action.

I always find that once I really start getting into a characters head and role-playing them as the professional criminal that they are preparation is more important than action.

I suppose after a certain period of time a GM could reasonably start hand-waving much of the planning, just as many do Matrix stuff, but for a group to assume that they don't need to at least cover their ass is just asking to be maimed by GM.

It's always the guy with the mental Troll that charges in where Angels fear to tread that is cut down by withering automatic gunfire in the first initiative pass...

[Riki]

Ya if it takes you 45mins to open a door, then thats a problem, remake a melee char, be the guy who charges into everything head first reguardless of whoes talkin about how to do what and let everyone react off that, sometimes its good to talk about plans but if its something thats not worth arguing about, just charge in head first with no knowledge of whats gona happen. If yer GM isnt a dick or thinks much humor from it im sure you wont die the first time.

Hehe, thats my job in the group, when we start talking about it to much i get the "GM head nod" then take my car and crash in the front door, if they dont follow me then so be it. I'll do the mission solo

[deek]

I had this happen in my last game. The players were hired for some wetwork. They had several different plans and like your group, started arguing on which one was best, so on and so forth. After listening to all the different plans, they all were good, all took into consideration escape plans, covering their own asses, etc, but they wouldn't pick one.

Well, while two of the players were debating, a third just went out and did his thing. I let the players continue to discuss while the others did their plan. It was successful and in the process, I hoped everyone learned a lesson.

We were there to have fun, didn't need to plan every little detail, just make a reasonable attempt. The GM will point out some gaps if need be, but even the most bulletproof plan, if the GM needs a plot device, he'll make something not go exactly right...

I'd say the GM in the OP just needed to push the players along and after a few pushes, the players will feel comfortable enough with the GM to hit the right amount of planning and just play. Some GMs may require 90% planning, while others are fine with 50% or 10%...just have to find that balance with your GM.

[PBI]

It's up to the players, really. If that's how they want to play, fine. Best thing to do is to voice your concerns to everyone and discuss the problem in a calm, rational manner.

[Petrie_SMG]

I have the slow player problem at times. One way that it can be handled is to not give them all day to just sit and think about what to do. If they can't come up with their action in a timely manner, things go on without them. If they're taking that much time to talk about what to do when they are not in a stressful or dangerous situation, that doesn't work so well.

As your example, a team is talking about opening a door for 45 minutes? Another goon or guard might come along in that time, or maybe one of the bodyguards has to leave that room to go get something, or a security drone is conducting a sweep, etc. Combat irks me in particular, if they can't figure out an action, other PCs or NPCs actions happen without them.

[InfinityzeN]

"Bah, enuff 'dis talk'n stuf, I iz goin' in 'dar an killin 'dem all!"
"No wai..."
*BOOT*
*CRASH*
*Budda budda budda*
"AHHHHHHH!*
*SPLAT*
"ARG! My spleen!"
*CRUNCH*
"Get em off! Get em off!"
*CHOMP*
"It bit me! It bit me on the ass!"

[Riki]

"Bah, enuff 'dis talk'n stuf, I iz goin' in 'dar an killin 'dem all!"
"No wai..."
*BOOT*
*CRASH*
*Budda budda budda*
"AHHHHHHH!*
*SPLAT*
"ARG! My spleen!"
*CRUNCH*
"Get em off! Get em off!"
*CHOMP*
"It bit me! It bit me on the ass!"

lol, B&E at its best

[crizh]

My DnD group are a lot like that.

Which explains why the Cleric was level drained two levels and after three years I'm the only one that still has the same character....

[kzt]

the worst instance, the came to a door and argued for 45 minutes on how to open it, if the should open it.it was a normal door and on the other side were a few goons and the target.

I'd have the people on the other side take note of the armed thugs standing outside the door and take action appropriately. So their argument gets rudely interrupted by the hand grenade going off.

[Cheops]

My group is pretty much the same except with the addition of a couple of players who don't think well on their feet. What usually happens is they sit around arguing what to do for most of the session before my other player has had enough and starts doing stuff. Suddenly they have to try and keep up and think on their feet and they almost always make poor/sub-optimal choices which eventually snow-balls out of control.

Last time we played the aggressive player was drinking grog (rum, water, and lemon/lime juice). Did lead to the amusing excuse of "The grog made me do it."

[Maelstrome]

like the others have said. all is fine when you take your time planning before hand. it is not fine though when you take your time with each individual situation.

thanks everyone for your input.

[Riki]

If ya have to argue about something, it just makes things with no fun. I have no qualms about bombing a mission to make things halarious. Its all a game man, just remind everyone its good to have fun and plan things out and get the job done, but nothings gona work if we dont act on something.

[InfinityzeN]

When all else fails, there is a fall back plan. What is this fall back plan you ask? Glad you asked, it is three little letters. BSU! Yea baby, BSU will solve all your problems with characters sitting around arguing about what to do next.

What? Oh, your asking what this magic cure-all actually is? Why simple my good man! BSU is short for Blow Shit Up! Let me tell you, you start blowing shit up and the PCs will ether get hopping real fast or be real dead. Fire, concussion waves, lots of noise, shock, awe, bodies splattered like garbage bags full of Campbells chicken noodle soup dropped from a three story window! Ahhhh, it is a true thing of beauty.

[Backgammon]

one of my friends runs sr4. he stopped running because his group takes forever to do anything. they argue about who should do what and whos idea is best. they have no team cohesion. it got to the point where a run that should have only taken 3-4 hours went unfinished after 7-8 hours of play and had to be picked up later for another 4-5 hours.
the gm had planned 12 mission it took them 6 sessions to do 2 of them. those sessions where over the course of one month. the gm was fed up with it and quit.

Out ofcuriosity, am I the only one that thinks a single "mission" should take an average of 3 sessions? And that 6 games in 1 month is like a crazy high amount of sessions? Like, my games are super infrequent due to conflicting schedule, but IMO if you do 3 games a month you'Re going at a pretty fast pace. No?

[Maelstrome]

Out ofcuriosity, am I the only one that thinks a single "mission" should take an average of 3 sessions? And that 6 games in 1 month is like a crazy high amount of sessions? Like, my games are super infrequent due to conflicting schedule, but IMO if you do 3 games a month you'Re going at a pretty fast pace. No?

if they were more complex missions maybe with a heavier plot i would agree that more sessions per mission would be fine. i also dont know how long your sessions are. when i run a game i pick a date where nobody has anything else needing to be done and we generally play one mission or adventure for 4-8 hours. the group in question usually "plays" for around 6-10 hours and usually doesnt finish up the the mission so has to pick it up later. the group im running at the moment has been playing MST since the begining of the month. we average one game a week under me or jeremy and about once every two weeks under laron if we dont start a new game. the gm in question trys to do one mission a week which is almost always two sessions despite them being very short game wise if you get that. the missions he has been running are generally simple b&e mostly. back when i played with the group we usually kept things rolling. then we had one bad mission poor in concept and execution. which we managed to survive only because of the combat people(me and one other). and the hacker of the group bitched and said he quit and the other player followed him. after that i started up my sr group with the gm from that game and the combat guy from that game.now my sr game is over and my MST game is going. the sr4 gm is wanting to finish the story he wrote for his sr4 game. jeremy and i had talked to him about it and thats where we are now.

anyway, how long does your group play per session? and how complex would you say each mission is?

[Stahlseele]

GM:"Come on you guys . . show some initiative!"
*sound of dice being rolled*
P1:"17"
P2:"12"
P3:"21"
GM:"AAAARRRGG!"

Eh, it happens . . mostly, we spend half of the time we are together planning what to do . .
And in the end, in 90% of the cases i was my character who said:"Ah damn it, gimme a gun, i'm gonna go in there and do whatever it is we are getting paid for, if ya pussies can't agree on a course of action"

[Maelstrome]

anybody else just get tired and improvise your way through.

when i do get like that i usually come out on top because i can out my gms on the fly.

[Stahlseele]

I can't really outsmart anyone . . but i can definitely outshoot about 80% of the things my characters are most likely gonna encounter so eh ^^

[Maelstrome]

hey, sometimes thats all you need.

[PirateChef]

Out ofcuriosity, am I the only one that thinks a single "mission" should take an average of 3 sessions? And that 6 games in 1 month is like a crazy high amount of sessions? Like, my games are super infrequent due to conflicting schedule, but IMO if you do 3 games a month you'Re going at a pretty fast pace. No?

My old group would play 3 - 5 times a week, for 6 or so hours at a time. We were all college students, and would get out of class around noon or so, then play until dinner time, after which we'd go partake in other activities.

[Riki]

GM:"Come on you guys . . show some initiative!"
*sound of dice being rolled*
P1:"17"
P2:"12"
P3:"21"
GM:"AAAARRRGG!"

lol

we usually get a game in every 2 weeks, and we complete the mission that day, our really long mission we had we took extra time that day to do and it was the equivilent of 4 of our missions, and was really exciting =)