Players who don't want to learn the rules, The 'beer and pretzel' kind Options

[The Jake]

Hi all

I am keen really come up with some good roleplaying scenarios but for one player of mine in particular he doesn't seem keen to learn the rules. This player is RPing an AI e-ghost with oodles of potential. He has next to no interest in his home node, upgrading programs, exploring the Matrix, etc. I've loaned him Emergence, RA:S, Brainscan for background material. He says he's read it and found it intriguing. At last word he said he's now reading the rules as opposed to fluff. But so far I've seen nothing to demonstrate it. This player enjoys roleplaying mind you but he just seems keen to coast.

I find it frustrating that someone plays this game and doesn't want to stretch themselves and see what is possible. I realize this is some of own judgements coming through but has anyone else got players like this? I've already told him I can only go so far with his character without him learning more of the game.

- J.

[toturi]

Talk to him. Maybe the problem is that he doesn't have any competition or that whatever you are throwing at him isn't much of a challenge. Stack the slightly odds against him and if it doesn't work to make him want to improve himself, make consequences affect the group.

I had a player character that was hoo-hum. He was happy with his character but a concept that I saw had a lot of potential. I ran a game that challenged him, with tests that would have been easier had he not been coasting along, thresholds just above what he could roll on average. Then he took my books back, read them and then gave me a laundry list that his character would do.

[Cardul]

Talk to him. Maybe the problem is that he doesn't have any competition or that whatever you are throwing at him isn't much of a challenge. Stack the slightly odds against him and if it doesn't work to make him want to improve himself, make consequences affect the group.

I had a player character that was hoo-hum. He was happy with his character but a concept that I saw had a lot of potential. I ran a game that challenged him, with tests that would have been easier had he not been coasting along, thresholds just above what he could roll on average. Then he took my books back, read them and then gave me a laundry list that his character would do.

I have a player like that in my games...I swear, the guy wouldn't have a sense of imagination if you beat him with Figment...No, I mean...really. I have to actually work to NOT kill his characters. Note: Yes, I have no problem killing PCs, but...I try to keep it in moderation. When he would likely be generating a new character every week or so.....because he falls for every trap, ignores every warning, and then never looks for the clever ways out(my own style of GMing: there is ALWAYS a way out...for those who are clever or daring enough...this guy is...neither.)

[The Jake]

Talk to him. Maybe the problem is that he doesn't have any competition or that whatever you are throwing at him isn't much of a challenge. Stack the slightly odds against him and if it doesn't work to make him want to improve himself, make consequences affect the group.

I had a player character that was hoo-hum. He was happy with his character but a concept that I saw had a lot of potential. I ran a game that challenged him, with tests that would have been easier had he not been coasting along, thresholds just above what he could roll on average. Then he took my books back, read them and then gave me a laundry list that his character would do.

Worth a crack. I think that could work. It would only work however if he had advance time to prepare.

Cranking up difficulties on him would make him think twice (perhaps) that he needs to learn more. If I just spring it on him suddenly, it could lead to a TPW (Total Party Wipe) and leave a lot of angry players and ruin my Ghost Cartels campaign.

- J.

[Mr. Mage]

He didn't say up the challenges to generate a TPK event, just up them enough to add some more drama and suspense to the campaign.

I've had similar characters, but not exactly like this. My friend alwasys lpays a combat monkey, no matter what game we play. DnD: Fighter, Traveller: Army Infantry, ShadowRun: Street Sammy. Now this isn't a bad thing normally, but his character is also incredibly one dimensional, as in no ropleplaying, and no skills other than "how to beat someone with a pointy stick". He also does not read the rules, and it really frustrates me sometimes, because there are options open to him that would be so much better than "I hit it with the business end of my sword". What about feinting? or Disarming? or other combat tactics? No, if it isn't "I hit you" then he doesn't want to do it.

Of course, usually, I'd be fine with this, since it's how he wants to play the game, but I don't tailor my games for an abundance of battles, mostly I taior it for RPing and non-combat skills. So obviously, he whines when there aren't a lot of fights, and we have gone for several sessions without a fight.

Honestly, the only way I have ever been able to deal with him is by either giving him a big fight to do or by strongly suggesting he rethink his character for my campaigns. It especially helps when the big fight is one he has a hard time winning, because then at least, he shuts up for awhile because he is afraid of pissing me off some more. But most of the time, he'll get the hint and start making his character more well rounded.

[HappyDaze]

There are those in RPGs that are great at roleplaying but poor at gaming. This happens almost as often as the opposite (good at gaming but terrible roleplayers). For some of them, the cruchy bits are just not fun or really worth their time to learn. For these players' SR4 is not really a good game. There are just too many rules for casual players, and this is really more a failing of the SR system than of those players. Try using a lighter gaming system (Savage Worlds could do it) with teh SR setting and see if those players shine a bit more. Do note that your gamist that delve into the crunch will not favor this change.

[DireRadiant]

Why should this person be forced to change what is fun for them to please you if it isn't affecting anyone else's fun?

So they are losing a few dice here and there. So what?

Why should he be forced to Read The Manual, when he's having fun and providing RP without it?

[Kingboy]

Amen to everything that DireRadiant just said...

As long as the player isn't disrupting the flow of play for others with constantly repeated questions on how to do simple things, what does it really matter? So his character isn't twinked out or pursuing some mythical path of idealized awesomeness in terms of raw power. Is he having fun? Are the other players having fun? If so, maybe you could consider going with the flow and having fun with a slacker e-ghost in the campaign.

[Mr. Mage]

Not to seem like I'm whining or trying to pick a fight, and I don't know if DireRadiant's comments are directed towards me or not, but the point I was trying to make was that my friend does disrupt the game by whining when there aren't enough battles. It wouldn't be a problem if he would just shut up and deal with it, which is what I eventually force him to do most of the time.

And no, I'm not putting in less and less battles just to annoy him or anything, it's just how I play, and I'm not going to undo my hours of planning just because one player is unhappy. The other 4 or 5 players tend to be content with how I do things.

[Traul]

I think your case is pretty different form The Jake's. He's talking about a player who fancies more the RP than G in RPG. You're talking about somebody who sucks at both. Hence the question: do you have a good reason to keep him at your table?

Good reason: he's my friend
Very good reason: she's my girlfriend
Very very good reason: we're playing in his basement (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[DireRadiant]

... I don't know if DireRadiant's comments are directed towards me or not, ...

It's not always about you.

[Mr. Mage]

It's not always about you.

Nope, the world revolves around me...hehe....I just wasn't sure, since you didn't really seem to specify who you were talking to.

And Traul, I'm gonna just go with the "Good Reason" Answer. Just my friend.

[PBI]

The player that wants to RP and not get deeply into the rules is perfectly OK. Sure, he won't be up to potential (for the character), but that's OK if he's having fun. If it's affecting the other players' fun, then let them approach him (or suggest to them that they do so). On a similar vein, don't dumb adventures down just because a player refuses to learn the rules. Maybe work something up to scare him a little and then point out why he almost died. He'll either learn enough of the rules to bring his game up, or he won't.

[deek]

How frequently do you play? I ask this because I have found that the longer between session, the less likely players are going to spend time "learning" their character or the rules.

My gaming group meets every week, but we alternate between DnD and SR. I spend about 15 minutes per level picking new powers/feats and whatnot on my DnD character. I know I could probably find some better strategies or different skills/feats/gear in other DnD books, but I never do. Now, I know the rules well, but because of the time between games, I have no motivation to get deeper. I perform fine in game and RPing.

Now the SR game I run, my players are all solid, but because of the organization of rules/gear in multiple books, the myriad options available to each character, I feel that no one really knows "all the rules". And I don't see there being a huge motivation to do so...I mean, the game mechanic is pretty simple, so I feel like most players, after chargen, feel like they know everything they need.

[The Jake]

Deek - good point. They play weekly but I only play fortnightly. My situation doesn't sound that different to yours. It could be the gap but I have two other players (both oft times GM) who are fastidiously learning the rules.

I know not all players are game heavy and I have at least one Mad Gamer at my table but in general I cannot understand why people don't even want to learn the basics. I mean over and beyond what the GM asks them to roll.

- J.

[Traul]

Can't you have the mad gamer coach him? This way you are not interfering with your players, and everybody gets to do what he likes. We do that in our group and it works pretty well.

[The Jake]

When I say Mad Gamer, I mean it in the sense as Uncle Figgy meant it... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

- J.

[Backgammon]

I played for a good, what, 5 years with players that did not know the rules. GM tells them roll this and that, and they do.
I don't think there's anything you can really do. Some people like numbers, some people don't. Odds are the guy that doesn't know the rules just likes the hanging out with buddies and talking about Shadowrun part of gaming rather than "winning".

[The Jake]

I played for a good, what, 5 years with players that did not know the rules. GM tells them roll this and that, and they do.
I don't think there's anything you can really do. Some people like numbers, some people don't. Odds are the guy that doesn't know the rules just likes the hanging out with buddies and talking about Shadowrun part of gaming rather than "winning".

That's the essence of it ,yes. Our group, while we game regularly, it is intended to be as much of a social thing as it is a gaming thing.

Having said that, the bulk of the players taking gaming seriously. Most of the players have differing views on which games they want to focus their efforts on. E.g. some players take D&D v3.5 seriously enough to read the rules.

The way that happened was that overtime most players acquired the rulebooks and so this lead to more people reading them. The players that didn't seem that interested in learning the rules we found never bought the PHBs themselves - and yet they were the ones bogging down the game with requests to do things the rules didn't allow. So for their birthdays we all chipped in and bought them the rulebook. Pretty soon everyone that didn't have the books had a copy. This took about 12 months of course for everyone to finally get one but it had a real positive impact on our D&D campaign. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I suppose we could repeat the process but its getting to a point of shitting me a bit that some people just don't take the initiative themselves. They can find $15k for a new motorbike but can't find $60AUD for a copy of the SR BBB?? I don't expect this player to create huge botnets or try to write his own nasty worms or viruses, but it would be nice for him to come up with a few ideas on how to exploit his own powers in new/creative ways just using the rules as a basic framework.

It also shits me a bit that I'm the only person that seems proactive enough to kickstart this. Part of me is planning on telling players that I plan on becoming a bit of a rules nazi and also tightening up on access to the books in game - but that might be a bit heavy handed.

- J.

[Shinobi Killfist]

I have a player like that in my games...I swear, the guy wouldn't have a sense of imagination if you beat him with Figment...No, I mean...really. I have to actually work to NOT kill his characters. Note: Yes, I have no problem killing PCs, but...I try to keep it in moderation. When he would likely be generating a new character every week or so.....because he falls for every trap, ignores every warning, and then never looks for the clever ways out(my own style of GMing: there is ALWAYS a way out...for those who are clever or daring enough...this guy is...neither.)

While sometimes people are like that, a lot of times I see two people who just work on different wave lengths. What you put into your game that you think is a clever and daring way out, he/she may think is an fing retarded idea that would never work. His idea of clever you might think is stupid. Sometimes there are 2+2=4 situations and the player keeps coming up with 5. But lots of times since you are dealing with fictional character reactions in a fictional world with fictional events how people see events logically playing out from there actions might be slightly different than what the DM sees.

I have no idea what your player is like, but in a few games I have been in there would be a certain player with what I'd see as a fairly cool plan that the GM thought was retarded so he destroyed it. The player just thought differently than the GM, so how he'd see a person naturally react to an event the GM saw totally differently. It was fairly frustrating for both of them. The GM thought he had to kid glove the player not to kill him and the player thought he was being singled out for abuse.

[The Jake]

While sometimes people are like that, a lot of times I see two people who just work on different wave lengths. What you put into your game that you think is a clever and daring way out, he/she may think is an fing retarded idea that would never work. His idea of clever you might think is stupid. Sometimes there are 2+2=4 situations and the player keeps coming up with 5. But lots of times since you are dealing with fictional character reactions in a fictional world with fictional events how people see events logically playing out from there actions might be slightly different than what the DM sees.

I have no idea what your player is like, but in a few games I have been in there would be a certain player with what I'd see as a fairly cool plan that the GM thought was retarded so he destroyed it. The player just thought differently than the GM, so how he'd see a person naturally react to an event the GM saw totally differently. It was fairly frustrating for both of them. The GM thought he had to kid glove the player not to kill him and the player thought he was being singled out for abuse.

One of my players is EXACTLY like that. Sometimes he comes up with some real ingenious insight that escaped every other player present. Most of the time though he hogs the limelight, takes forever to decide on anything and often leads to arguments or problems with the party.

But I tell ya, when he gets these insights it is glorious to watch. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

- J.

[vladski]

Hi all

I am keen really come up with some good roleplaying scenarios but for one player of mine in particular he doesn't seem keen to learn the rules. This player is RPing an AI e-ghost with oodles of potential. He has next to no interest in his home node, upgrading programs, exploring the Matrix, etc. I've loaned him Emergence, RA:S, Brainscan for background material. He says he's read it and found it intriguing. At last word he said he's now reading the rules as opposed to fluff. But so far I've seen nothing to demonstrate it. This player enjoys roleplaying mind you but he just seems keen to coast.

I find it frustrating that someone plays this game and doesn't want to stretch themselves and see what is possible. I realize this is some of own judgements coming through but has anyone else got players like this? I've already told him I can only go so far with his character without him learning more of the game.

- J.

Somethings I haven't seen mentioned on this thread yet concerning your player:


1. Perhaps a Matrix delving character is too much work.  In my opinion it takes a really special player to play the Matrix aspect of SR well.  It's involved, even under the simpler rules in SR4.  Maybe he has bitten off more than he can chew.

2. Perhaps the player isn't overly fond of his character.  This could possibly be related to point one, or for other reasons.  Maybe he is playing becasue he likes hte game and the company but not really his character.  

These are jsut thoughts and might not pertain to the player or problem at all.  But, it's worth looking into.  If hte player really likes "roleplaying" perhaps he would rather be playing some version of a face where he gets to interact a lot more with NPC's and has to do less thinking and rolling.  I would talk to the player privately, preferably not during a gaming session, but jsut when you are hanging around about it.  And, if it's the case and you don't think it would cause any backlash or set a bad precedent with your other players, you could offer to let him retire the character and let him build a new one either with more build points or, after a normal build for a new character for your game let him retain the karma he has earned with the retired character.  For a real treat, you could even work out a plot where the original character is killed off dramatically (with the players help) or otherwise removed permanently from the game.   This might give the player a real chance to ham it up with the dramatics and, if it is a surprise to the other players, could generate a really memorable session. Alternatively, he could be retired and remanded to the GM's arsenal of NPCs and occasionally make an appearance to help or hinder the party.



Vlad

[HappyDaze]

It also shits me a bit that I'm the only person that seems proactive enough to kickstart this. Part of me is planning on telling players that I plan on becoming a bit of a rules nazi and also tightening up on access to the books in game - but that might be a bit heavy handed.

Be wary of taking actions that lead to deliberate non-fun. I doubt your players are trying to avoid learning the rules to deliberatly derail your enjoyment, so taking the opposite route with intent can be seen as a dickhead move.

[Blade]

I like it better when the players know the rules. It makes the game go faster and prevent problems such as forgetting a rule or making mistakes. This doesn't mean the players have to know everything and twink their characters. This doesn't mean either that they have to be rule nazis. They just have to be able to roll without me telling them how many dice to roll, be able to tell me what matrix action they are doing instead of telling me that they want to crack the node to make something.

That way, when my NPC shoot their PC, I just have to tell them how many hits with which gun/ammo and I can take care of what's happening next. When they cast a spell I don't have to remind them to tell me the force of the spell and to roll the drain...

Most of the time, I just tell my players about it. I tell them that I expect the mage to know the magic rules, the hacker to know the hacking rules, everyone to know the combat rules and so on. I think telling this should work for most players (at least, most players I'd enjoy playing with).

[The Jake]

I have one player, I kid you not, that cannot make a roll without someone telling him how many dice to roll. Ever. And I've gamed with this guy over ten years.

- J.