Armor from Spells, Is this stacking feasible? Options

[Neraph]

Every mage knows this spell, and comparatively it isn't up to par; Physical Barrier. It creates a barrier that can be seen through, and effectively creates a translucent wall. But the big problem with it is that it only adds (assuming the hits) 6 armor, and the wall itself can be destroyed, ending the spell before you're ready for it to end, unlike Armor or Reinforce.

However, given enough time to set it up (or enough mages cooperating), is it not feasible to cast Physical Barrier, Reinforce it, and then have a Spirit posess it? That would take 3 actions (split up amongst other mages, 1 IP possible), and create an armor 24 barrier, with hardened armor 12.

I do believe I am correct in assuming that you can Reinforce a Physical Barrier spell (and an Armor spell), but can you have a spirit posess a semi-permanent spell effect? And if not, why not?

[TBRMInsanity]

I would have to reread the Re-enforce spell again to see how it works but the Armour spell is on one individual only and couldn't be used on a physical barrier. As for having a Spirit posses the wall, can you point me to the reference. I know they can sustain a spell for you but that isn't the same as possessing it.

[Neraph]

I would have to reread the Re-enforce spell again to see how it works but the Armour spell is on one individual only and couldn't be used on a physical barrier. As for having a Spirit posses the wall, can you point me to the reference. I know they can sustain a spell for you but that isn't the same as possessing it.

/sigh

I was not saying cast Armor on a Physical Barrier spell. I was saying the Physical Barrier spell can be ended easier than the Armor spell, simply by shooting it.

I also assume that you can Reinforce a Physical Barrier, just like I assume you can Reinforce an Armor spell. And with a further reading of Armor, you can in fact cast that on an object if you so chose. So you can Armor a Physical Barrier.

As for posession, I know spirits can posess objects. The main question is if they can posess a spell-made wall. I see no reason they couldn't, which is why I posted this thread.

[Adarael]

I dislike the idea of casting Reinforce on a spell, because you're not really casting it on a THING, you're casting it on the effect of a mana construct. In the same way you can't cast an astral equivalent of Reinforce on a Ward, because it's a mana construct as well. There's also nothing for the spirit to posess, because spirits posess things - and a physical barrier isn't a thing, per se, it's an effect. It's never indicated that barrier spells have mass, or slice into the ground in a sphere when you cast them, because the barrier has no thickness. It simply imparts the quality of "Whoa, stop right there!" to anything passing through it.

You might as well ask if you can have a spirit posess a mage's astral body (they can't) or if you can cast "mob mood" on FAB (I guess you can, but it's a nonsensical question.)

[McAllister]

You can't possess a spell for the same reason you can't possess an emotion. The fluff reason is it's not a good enough anchor to the physical plane. The crunch reason is that there are 3 things you can possess: living animals, dead bodies, and inanimate objects.

I'd also say a spell is not an object with structural integrity, and so reinforce does not apply.

The benefits to physical barrier over Armour are these;
It (physical barrier) can impede enemy movement
It can shelter your entire party
It can slow down an oncoming vehicle
It regenerates every turn
You can get it above 6 armour/structure, you just need to be a casting badass
You can cast spells and use spirits through it
You can get creative with it; need to bridge a gap? Barrier it. Enemy got a rocket launcher? Wall in his face. Room slowly filling with water? Wall off a corner, so you have time to put on a rebreather or plant an explosive or something.

Sure, it's annoying that it might get destroyed, but it's not a bad spell.

[Neraph]

You can't possess a spell for the same reason you can't possess an emotion. The fluff reason is it's not a good enough anchor to the physical plane. The crunch reason is that there are 3 things you can possess: living animals, dead bodies, and inanimate objects.

I'd also say a spell is not an object with structural integrity, and so reinforce does not apply.

The spell in question creates an inanimate object, complete with a Structure Rating and Armor Rating. It is a spell effect, yes, but at the same time it is an inanimate object. It has an actual structure rating, so it does in fact have structural integrity.

Also, it should be noted that the fluff of a spell cares not for the crunch of a spell. The Reinforce spell simply increased the Armor and Structure rating of an object. I'll cede not being able to Reinforce Armor, as it has not structure rating, but by that logic you can't Reinforce mundane armor either, as it has no structure rating. Physical Barrier has both a Structure and armor rating, Reinforce fits the bill perfectly for it.

I dislike the idea...

Just because you dislike an idea does not mean it isn't valid.

[Summerstorm]

I would rule no too, sorry. First: getting a spirit or elemental to inhibit/possess a spell?...Eh... just no... i don't even want to think about why not *g*. Ah well ok: you could let him possess a mindcontrol spell for extra force, or a elementary wall.. and then bend it into your enemies with power 15 or higher? OW... that is just strange application of spirits. I choose not to believe in the possibility *g*.

Second: Reinforce works on objects. A spell effect is not an object. You create a force, transporting mana into the physical world as physical power or energy. That is not a tangible THING.

The reeinforce spell has nearly no combat-application other than reeinforcing your cover, i would think. Casting that on your armor is just begging to slow down to a crawl.

[Adarael]

It creates an effect with a structure rating, not an inanimate object. Proof of this:
-How much does a physical barrier spell weigh?
-What does it smell like?
-How do you move it?
-Where to the pieces of it go when you break it?
And most importantly...
-What is it MADE OF?

It's made of mana. It's got no weight. It doesn't smell like anything. And you can't move it. It's a stationary, immobile, non-material mana effect. When you break it, nothing is left. It thins universally and then stops existing when enough force is working on it.
I'm not saying it's invalid because I dislike it. I'm saying I dislike it because it's invalid prima facie. An inanimate object could be pushed, moved, relocated, and otherwise manipulated using your hands. Barrier cannot.

It's the same as trying to use the Ice Sheet spell to create drinkable water - you can't, it creates the effect of ice on a surface, but does not effectively create tangible ice, otherwise you could use Ice Sheet to force open doors by freezing water.

If you want to cast reinforce and posess a barrier, sure, you can - as GM - say that's OK. But by the rules, I think this is not possible, and not doable, because Barrier creates a wall of force out of mana, not an inanimate object.

[darthmord]

It's the same as trying to use the Ice Sheet spell to create drinkable water - you can't, it creates the effect of ice on a surface, but does not effectively create tangible ice, otherwise you could use Ice Sheet to force open doors by freezing water.

I refer you to SR4a, Page 210, the spell 'Ice Sheet'.

CODE

Ice Sheet (Environmental, Area)
Type: P • Range: LOS (A) • Duration: I • DV: (F ÷ 2) + 3
This spell creates a slippery sheet of ice over the area of effect.
Characters crossing the ice must make an Agility + Reaction Test with
a threshold equal to the hits scored to avoid falling prone. Vehicles
must make a Crash Test (p. 178). The sheet melts at a rate of 1 square
meter per minute in normal temperatures.

The description is *VERY* clear. It creates a slippery sheet of ice. It even melts.

Then again, it's a Manipulation spell. It by default (as an Environmental Manipulation spell) creates the actual elements specified.

[Stilgar]

If I remember correctly, one of the rules of magic is that you can not create matter from nothing. So I would assume the way Ice Sheet works is to draw in the moisture in the air and in/on the ground to form the ice. Although this brings up more in depth questions of how does Ice sheet work in an arid desert, but at some point you can either decide to be all about the physics or just have fun and assume it finds a deep aquifer to draw out the water from to make the ice sheet.

[Adarael]

Yeah, you can create ICE with the steet, but I recall Synner answering a question about creating water from the ice to drink, and he was like, "No. Go get Create Water."

My point is the Ice Sheet ice behaves like an Ice Sheet. It doesn't behave like real ice, in that you can't Ice Sheet doorframes and jam the doors shut due to ice clogging stuff. You can't Ice Sheet water and make yourself an Ice Sheet bridge. You can't even Ice Sheet a room to cool it down. You Ice Sheet something, it gets slippery. And that's it. For all intents and purposes, the Ice Sheet is infinitely thin, but isn't 'worn away' by people driving on it or such.

[Draco18s]

And it does melt, but the resultant water "evaporates" via magic phlebotinium back to where it "came" from.

Sure: you can get things wet with the ice sheet (ice sheet a wall, place a towel on the floor, it'll soak up the run off) but the water doesn't stick around very long--maybe long enough to wipe a window clean with the damp rag.

That is, it makes things wet but it doesn't make puddles.

However, under creative application I'd rule that you can drink the water (catching drops, squeezing a towel, licking), but that it won't hydrate you as the magic would evaporate and still return the water...

[Neraph]

And it does melt, but the resultant water "evaporates" via magic phlebotinium back to where it "came" from.

Sure: you can get things wet with the ice sheet (ice sheet a wall, place a towel on the floor, it'll soak up the run off) but the water doesn't stick around very long--maybe long enough to wipe a window clean with the damp rag.

That is, it makes things wet but it doesn't make puddles.

However, under creative application I'd rule that you can drink the water (catching drops, squeezing a towel, licking), but that it won't hydrate you as the magic would evaporate and still return the water...

I'd agree. The Nutrition spell would be a much better substitute.

To the original topic, I understand where you guys are coming from, although I still don't totally agree with you. However, even if you can't Reinforce Armor, you can still Armor twice (or more).