Endowment + Materialization Power Interaction, Can an Invoked Spirit Grant Materialization? Options

[dirkformica]

Scenario: Summoner Invokes a Guardian spirit with Endowment great form power.

Questions:
1.) Can the summoner task the Guardian spirit with Endowing the summoner with the Materialization power?
2.) Can the summoner then astrally project, travels someplace, and use Materialization to re-enter the physical plane and be able to interact with it normally?
3.) If 3 is true, does the Materialized summoner now also gain Immunity to Natural Weapons?
4a.) If 4 is true, what is the armor rating?
4b.) What if the Materialized character put on additional armor?
<edit>4c.) What if the character then cast the Armor spell on himself?


My Opinions: It seems that 1 and 2 are strictly true by Rules As Written (although it would be hard to rationalize having two distinct physical selves on the same plane at the same time in different locations.) 3 also seems to be true by strict RAW. Armor rating would seem to then follow the normal rules of Materialization which would be Armor = Magic rating x2. So by my reading, a Summoner with a 6 Magic could travel using Astral Projection, Materialize, have two distinct physical bodies, and the Materialized form would have 12 Hardened Armor, and the character could do this for 6 hours before having to return to their natural body. I really don't know how ItNW interacts with additional worn armor. For example, if that character put on an Urban Explorer Jumpsuit, would it add 6 armor? Would he now have 18 armor, 12 of which was hardened? <edit> And if he then cast Armor spell force 6 on himself, what would the total armor be? 24 armor, 12 hardened? 18 armor, because the worn armor doesn't count, with 12 hardened? Or perhaps something else?

[Adarael]

I... am not entirely sure matierialization is capable of being known by physical characters.

An interesting way to look at it: a human is essentially a Posession-class entity, and not a Materialization-class entity. The soul & aura posess and inhabit the physical form, which is why it always remains around doing nada while the Astral Body zips along in Astral Space. By learning the Posession metamagic, the magician is basically learning how to borrow other 'prepared vessels' (other bodies always have an aura attached to them, after all).

Stepping outside of the realm of metaphysics, I think this would be shot down by any GM who thought a moment about the ramifications it would have for in-game metaphysics.

[McAllister]

I think materialization is completely INcapable of being known by physical characters. Astral characters, however, make a lot more sense. Here's how I see it; there's very little difference between an astral magician and an astral spirit, except that one is tethered to a meatbag and the other is tethered to a metaplane. If an astral magician can learn Materialization (or even Possession, for that matter) I don't see why he can't play with it.

But why would he get ItNW?

[Adarael]

It's a byproduct of the Materialization power. Anything that Materializes gets ItNW.

[Ancient History]

1.) Can the summoner task the Guardian spirit with Endowing the summoner with the Materialization power?

A Great Form Guardian spirit has the Endowment power, which allows it to grant the use of one of its powers to another. Since Materialization is a power, then strictly speaking it can grant the use of Materialization. (There's been some errata suggested to bring this into line with the Power Pact forever, but it hasn't been decided on or released yet.)

2.) Can the summoner then astrally project, travels someplace, and use Materialization to re-enter the physical plane and be able to interact with it normally?

The Materialization power only affects astral critters, so yes you'd have to astrally project to use it. As far as interacting with it normally - not quite. The character's astral form may affect (and be affected by) physical targets; they are dual-natured (note that they do not gain the Dual Natured power, and suffer the usual -2 penalty to interacting with anything solely on the physical), not subject to gravity, and generally of an obviously ethereal nature.

3.) If 3 is true, does the Materialized summoner now also gain Immunity to Natural Weapons?

Yep.

4a.) If 4 is true, what is the armor rating?

Based on the Magic of the spirit.

[ Spoiler ]

Man, is anybody else getting a Lo Pan feel?

4b.) What if the Materialized character put on additional armor?

I would generally disallow this, as most armor hasn't been made to fit astral forms or materialized spirit, but if allowed I'd probably only count the higher of the two as the character's actual armor rating, with the Immunity from Normal Weapons power providing Hardened Armor.

Okay, example:
A Force 2 spirit materializes, and thus from its Immunity to Normal Weapons has a hardened armor of 4/4. It's summoner commands it to put on a specially-crafted armor jacket (8/6). The spirit's effective rating is 8/6, but any attacks less than its hardened armor (DV < 4) just bounce off.

<edit>4c.) What if the character then cast the Armor spell on himself?

The Armor spell provides armor cumulative with other armor, but this is not hardened.

Example:
The spirit from the previous example (8/6, hardened 4) receives a Force 2 armor spell (+2/+2 for two hits), for a total armor of (10/8, hardened 4).

[Adarael]

Ok. Your Spoilered comment sold me on this concept ENTIRELY. I had not considered that.

And damn me if I don't want to do just that, now.

And then I will marry both women!

[Falconer]

I would generally disallow this, as most armor hasn't been made to fit astral forms or materialized spirit, but if allowed I'd probably only count the higher of the two as the character's actual armor rating, with the Immunity from Normal Weapons power providing Hardened Armor.

Okay, example:
A Force 2 spirit materializes, and thus from its Immunity to Normal Weapons has a hardened armor of 4/4. It's summoner commands it to put on a specially-crafted armor jacket (8/6). The spirit's effective rating is 8/6, but any attacks less than its hardened armor (DV < 4) just bounce off.


The Armor spell provides armor cumulative with other armor, but this is not hardened.


Example:
The spirit from the previous example (8/6, hardened 4) receives a Force 2 armor spell (+2/+2 for two hits), for a total armor of (10/8, hardened 4).

This is strictly RAW Ancient. No need to disallow/allow it outright.

The hardened armor power specifically lacks the phrase found in all those other sources of armor such as the armor spell (or the adept but not critter power 'mystic armor'). Every other source of stacking armor has the words "cumulative with worn armor." with some slight cosmetic exact wording variations. Thankfully, this is about the only thing which keeps possession traditions from being outright completely broken (the +1 per point force to physical attributes is still pretty bad though).

Also, I'll point out, the materialization power does not grant the power of 'realistic form'. So the whole cut and shape of the armor is quite relevant.


Also the critter 'natural armor' similarly... it's cumulative with worn armor. But it doesn't say it's cumulative w/ hardened armor.
So if I had a critter w/ natural armor 8, hardened 5. By my reading, it wouldn't have 13 points armor... it'd have 8... and any attack which didn't do at least 5 would be ignored. (quite frankly any hardened rating under 6 is almost pointless I tend to find).



Though here's a real kicker for you... would the 'materialized mage' now be limited to astral perception. Or could he use his own natural enhanced senses. (I'd go with no... for game balance reasons. Okay I bust into the computer center... materialize at the keyboard.. and send out the paydata over the matrix. Entirely a no go, as astral perception can't interact w/ technology like that). Materialized astral form being different than a spirit w/ the 'low-light vision power' or similar.

[dirkformica]

Though here's a real kicker for you... would the 'materialized mage' now be limited to astral perception. Or could he use his own natural enhanced senses. (I'd go with no... for game balance reasons. Okay I bust into the computer center... materialize at the keyboard.. and send out the paydata over the matrix. Entirely a no go, as astral perception can't interact w/ technology like that).

What if Task spirits were used? They can have Endowment when Invoked, as well as the optional powers of Enhanced Senses such as Low Light vision. Can 1 Task spirit grant multiple Endowments to a character if they have the different abilities? Can 2 Task spirits be used with the first granting Materialization and then the 2nd granting Enhanced Senses? If the character then Materialized he would have both a physical form as well as a Physical sense beyond Astral Perception with Low light vision to perceive things such as AR.

[HappyDaze]

Despite what AH seems to think, there is no reason that a projecting magician using Materialization would not be able to put on armor. The astral form is your 'idealized self' and while it may not have the same exact measurements as your meat body, it's almost certain to be within the metahuman range and most armor is not form-fitting (except where specified).

The same could be said for spirits too. If a Guardian spirit can use weapons provided to it - such as an assault rifle - it can reasonably use armor too. I rcommend keeping the Body Armor Bag (Arsenal, page 48) for your Guardian spirits. Hand it a bag filled with a weapon and ammunition so it has a weapon along with supplimental armor too. A spirit - and the magican that summoned it - is an unlikely suspect when the target is gunned down from a hail of automatic fire.

[Neraph]

I would generally disallow this, as most armor hasn't been made to fit astral forms or materialized spirit, but if allowed I'd probably only count the higher of the two as the character's actual armor rating, with the Immunity from Normal Weapons power providing Hardened Armor.

If you mean that "generally disallow" in that if the spirit takes the form of a chimera, avenging angel (putting on armor around the wings is tough), or any other nonstandard humanoid shape, I would agree. However, I would assume that shamanistic ancestor spirits, spirits of man that take metahumanoid forms, and any other spirit that has generally the same size and shape of some metahuman would also be able to wear armor. Even a Black Mage's demon that looks pretty much like a reverse-jointed troll would be able to wear an armored jacket (as long as it were troll-sized).

[map]

I think this whole idea is cheese...but....forget the Materialization power. What about having the Spirit grant you the power of Astral Form. Wham you become an astral form....go where you want, then turn the power off. No meat body left behind.

...not sure this is legal...Thoughts


map

[pbangarth]

Isn't there a FAQ or an explanation somewhere on Dumpshock that describes how Hardened Armor and worn armor work together?

[McAllister]

It's easy, they don't (work together). If your worn armor exceeds your hardened armor, then as long as you take more damage than the value of the hardened armor, ignore the hardened armor. If your hardened armor exceeds your worn armor, you're wearing shitty armor, and you completely ignore your worn armor.

Map, read the Astral Gateway power. Is that what you have in mind?