"+2 to all Matrix Actions while in VR", What gets it? Options

[lowendz113]

Most of the time it is pretty obvious what skills get the bonus, being that they are your matrix skills, but there are a few areas that I'm not sure about.

1. Threading
2. The Tasking skill group
3. Matrix Defense
4. Matrix Attacks
5. Matrix Perception

I'm assuming 4&5 get the +2, being that 'Matrix' is in their name, but 1 and 2 I'm really not sure about. And I'm not sure if Defenses count as "actions" for the purpose of getting this bonus.

[DireRadiant]

Actually all of those could be done in AR. Then none of them could get the +2 in VR bonus. Perhaps the focus is not on the action itself? More about if you are in VR or AR mode.

[lowendz113]

Actually all of those could be done in AR. Then none of them could get the +2 in VR bonus. Perhaps the focus is not on the action itself? More about if you are in VR or AR mode.

It is absolutely the mode, I'm just asking if the mode actually alters these items. That is what I'm not clear about.

[Malachi]

Most of the time it is pretty obvious what skills get the bonus, being that they are your matrix skills, but there are a few areas that I'm not sure about.

1. Threading
2. The Tasking skill group
3. Matrix Defense
4. Matrix Attacks
5. Matrix Perception

I'm assuming 4&5 get the +2, being that 'Matrix' is in their name, but 1 and 2 I'm really not sure about. And I'm not sure if Defenses count as "actions" for the purpose of getting this bonus.

All of the above. All of the TM stuff gets the bonus, all of the Rigging actions get the bonus. Everything. The bonus is a reward for putting your brain on the line while in the Matrix - being vulnerable to lethal Black attacks. If you have the old BBB, the list is on page 219, if you've got SR4A the actions are on pages 228-232. All of those actions are considered "Matrix Actions" and thus get the +2 VR Hot-Sim bonus.

[LurkerOutThere]

I would disagree actually, when a TR threads or summons sprites they arn't interacting with the matrix itself but with their own living persona and connection to the resonance which is the same whether they are connected or not. Everything else yes, if you are a turtle user and get into combat with a VR'd or hot sim'd user you are going to get pounded but at least they can't fry your brain.

[Malachi]

That's kinda splitting hairs. A TM Threads and Compiles "in the Matrix" and the Resonance is the "soul" of the Matrix. If doing Resonance stuff doesn't count as a Matrix action then I don't know what does. A TM doing their thing in VR gets the bonus.

[LurkerOutThere]

That's kinda splitting hairs. A TM Threads and Compiles "in the Matrix" and the Resonance is the "soul" of the Matrix. If doing Resonance stuff doesn't count as a Matrix action then I don't know what does. A TM doing their thing in VR gets the bonus.

Well it's partially a balance issue as there's no reason not to Compile and Thread in full VR in essence it's a free bonus +2 dice for no reason at all. If they had wanted all those skills to recieve that bonus they would have stated as such in their descriptions. From a logical standpoint though there is nothing about a VR connection to the matrix itself that will help a technomancer as they are either improving their own internal self or communicating with spirits that they are supposedly always interconnected with.

[Wiseman]

SR4A 228

Note that this is not an exhaustive
list of actions that may be performed in the Matrix, but a list of actions
designated as “Matrix actions� for the purposes of game mechanics, such
as the bonus for using hot sim.

They pretty much layout what gets the bonus, but you raise a good point because some of those actions are not covered. So heres the my interpertation in an attempt to provide some answers.

1) Threading - Not in my opinion, because you only perform threading as part of another action. The bonus you get does apply to the action, but not to the threading itself, that would mechanicaly be almost like getting a +4 (provided you took the hits as rating points for the program being used in the action and both extra dice were in fact hits, ok so maybe not a true +4). This isn't specified anywhere though, so this is house rule territory. Considering standard device ratings and the most common limits, it's overkill IMHO to give the bonus twice.

2) Tasking - Pretty much they all give the bonus, as compiling or decompiling are both covered under the section which the quote above precedes. They're specifically matrix actions. (see SR4A page 229 and 230). The one thing that isn't definitive is the Registering. Given that registering takes hours, a +2 isn't even a guaranteed success (a good edge but not assured), and in light of the other two actions definitely getting the bonus, I allow it.

3) Matrix Defense - Another good one, because it's not in the "Matrix Actions" but is a part of cybercombat. We play that as a yes, defense gets the bonus. It seems odd to have the attacker get the +2 by RAW with the Matrix Attack Action (SR4A 231) without the defender if both personas are in hotsim VR. Defense isn't an action but a counter-action to an attack, and I think it should have similar modifiers.

4) Matrix Attacks - As above, it's specifically spelled out in SR4A given the quote above and the Matrix Attack Complex Action under Matrix Actions. All attacks get the bonus.

5) Matrix Perception - is pretty clearly defined in SR4A and has a few specific actions (all Matrix Actions and getting the +2 bonus), such as Analyze Node and Observe In Detail Simple Actions.

[Jaid]

i would give the bonus to all of those.

[lowendz113]

SR4A 228


They pretty much layout what gets the bonus, but you raise a good point because some of those actions are not covered. So heres the my interpertation in an attempt to provide some answers.

1) Threading - Not in my opinion, because you only perform threading as part of another action. The bonus you get does apply to the action, but not to the threading itself, that would mechanicaly be almost like getting a +4 (provided you took the hits as rating points for the program being used in the action and both extra dice were in fact hits, ok so maybe not a true +4). This isn't specified anywhere though, so this is house rule territory. Considering standard device ratings and the most common limits, it's overkill IMHO to give the bonus twice.

2) Tasking - Pretty much they all give the bonus, as compiling or decompiling are both covered under the section which the quote above precedes. They're specifically matrix actions. (see SR4A page 229 and 230). The one thing that isn't definitive is the Registering. Given that registering takes hours, a +2 isn't even a guaranteed success (a good edge but not assured), and in light of the other two actions definitely getting the bonus, I allow it.

3) Matrix Defense - Another good one, because it's not in the "Matrix Actions" but is a part of cybercombat. We play that as a yes, defense gets the bonus. It seems odd to have the attacker get the +2 by RAW with the Matrix Attack Action (SR4A 231) without the defender if both personas are in hotsim VR. Defense isn't an action but a counter-action to an attack, and I think it should have similar modifiers.

4) Matrix Attacks - As above, it's specifically spelled out in SR4A given the quote above and the Matrix Attack Complex Action under Matrix Actions. All attacks get the bonus.

5) Matrix Perception - is pretty clearly defined in SR4A and has a few specific actions (all Matrix Actions and getting the +2 bonus), such as Analyze Node and Observe In Detail Simple Actions.

Awesome, thank you sir. I did not consider your 1. point, and I think it is very valid.

Thank you everyone for your help.

[Tiger Eyes]

In our game, TMs get the +2 to threading while in VR. That's our game, of course, and any GM is free to rule otherwise. However, in our game, the majority of threading is done while not in VR, so it really is a small bonus to my TM.

In fact, I'd personally say that all five of the examples get the +2 while in VR.

[lowendz113]

Now this does beg the question, does sustaining give a -2 defenses?

[lowendz113]

Also, what about fading? Do you get the +2 to resist fading while in the Matrix?

[Malachi]

In our game, TMs get the +2 to threading while in VR. That's our game, of course, and any GM is free to rule otherwise. However, in our game, the majority of threading is done while not in VR, so it really is a small bonus to my TM.

In fact, I'd personally say that all five of the examples get the +2 while in VR.

It would all be a lot clearer if "Thread a Complex Form" was actually listed as an "Action" with all of the others in SR4A. As it stands right now, Threading is this thing that kinda sits in "limbo land" as far the rules go, and that makes it difficult to handle when interpreting some rules.

[Aaron]

Here's one way to look at it: if it's not an Action, how can it be a Matrix Action?

I expect dissent from players of technomancers.

[Wiseman]

Here's one way to look at it: if it's not an Action, how can it be a Matrix Action?

I assume this references threading and fully agree. It can't have it both ways by being "part of the program's action" but count as a separate action for it's own bonus. It's not even a Free Action, it's a "No Action - as part of another action". As TE said though, to each their own.

Now this does beg the question, does sustaining give a -2 defenses?

I didn't find anything specific one way or another, so going into "this is how we play at my table" land, here is how I rationalize it.

First we must make sure we clearly distinguish the Defense test vs the Matrix Damage Resistance test. Though it never really addresses the wound modifiers for Matrix damage (other than in the IC combat example), IMHO they do apply to the Defense test, as a parallel to how physical combat works in regards to Defense and Damage Resistance. (I know you're asking about sustaining modifers, but I figured this would be a good example to start with and show what the basis of my interpertation is).

I think all modifiers apply as normal to Defense tests, that includes the +2 for hot sim, sustaining penalties, and (matrix) wound modifiers. Damage Resistance gets none of these however, as it's the consequence of the Defense tests (not even a counter action), so it's not limited by or gaining any benefit from modifiers. To me, it's a raw (and RAW) mechanic that is straight forward representation of how bad that hurt. Thus moving faster or already being hurt don't/shouldn't really factor (as that was already covered in the Defense test that predicated the need for damage resistance).

In short, Defense tests are penalized by sustaining modifiers (unless you're sustaining only the shield complex form, as sustaining modifiers explicitly do not apply to the test that they modify directly). Finally, the sustaining modifier applies to all TM actions, including purely physical ones (when sustaining threading in AR for example but taking a physical pass or action).

Also, what about fading? Do you get the +2 to resist fading while in the Matrix?

To me Damage Resistance, Drain, and Fading all amount to the same thing. Given the above, no modifier nor penalty is applicable. They are straight forward "you got damaged, let's see how bad". In the case of Drain or Fading, you're just damaging yourself directly, without anyone helping you out. (I bleed for you guys!)

So I'd say no, Fading gets no hotsim modifier (nor wound or sustaining penalites). Drain works the same way for us.

That being said, I can feel myself stretching, and can very well be proven wrong, but based on my experience with SR4, and my more recent experiences with SR4A, I don't see anything concrete one way or the other. This is what works for us as it serves the dual purpose of being both intuitive and ensuring that resisting damage of any kind doesn't become a reciprocal nightmare of devolving dice pools. (Minor Edit: Or that one doesn't accumulate so many modifiers as to make resisting damage irrelevant and leading to game breaking dice pools since the risk limitation is effectively removed)

[Jaid]

but if threading is part of the action to use the CF, and using the CF is a matrix action, then by extension wouldn't that make threading a CF that you use is a matrix action by virtue of the fact that it's part of an action which itself is a matrix action?

that said, i don't think i'd give the bonus to fading resistance...