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> Going prices for 'runs, New meat needs to make the rent
TeknoDragon
post Jul 16 2009, 10:31 PM
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So, my first ever SR (specifically, SR4A) run was last Friday. It was a nice introductory milk-run, allowing us to get a handle on the rules, and get a bit of roleplay in (Dude! Observe and Record, man! What are you doing?!) that was quite a bit of fun.
However, we totally low-balled the price negotiation, giving the J a real bargain at 1/3 of what we should have charged, according to the GM as we did the post-game wrapup.

I'd love some advice for how to figure out estimates, even if it tends to be anecdotal and GM-specific.

Virtual drinks for help, and thanks in advance! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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Stahlseele
post Jul 16 2009, 10:41 PM
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Pay for run? 3d6+2K
Bonus if any: 2d6+3k
That's nice and random enough. at least 5k for one run, at maximum roll 20k for one run,
if you get a bonus, it's at least 5k and at maximum roll 15k.
Nothing official, just something that feels good enough for a beginning group.
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Method
post Jul 16 2009, 11:21 PM
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LINK

Check out the link in my sig for more info on how I found this.

And welcome to Dumpshock.
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TeknoDragon
post Jul 16 2009, 11:37 PM
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QUOTE (Method @ Jul 16 2009, 07:21 PM) *
LINK

Check out the link in my sig for more info on how I found this.

And welcome to Dumpshock.


Thank you both, Method and Stahlseele. For some odd reason, I didn't even think of clicking on the conveniently labeled "Search". I've had a lot of questions answered already just by reading through much of the forums already, as well as interesting points I didn't even consider. Y'all seem to be a decent, friendly bunch as well, and helpful to newcomers in general. Read through the 3E book a few years back, but time and a new edition changes things.
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HappyDaze
post Jul 17 2009, 02:35 AM
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I tend to pay high (as much as 10k per runner per misson) in my games, but I also charge for a lot of the things that many players just take for granted. Replacing fake SINs regularly, getting biosculpting done for disguise purposes, and the cost for maintaining those addictions players are quick to grab up during chargen have a way of draining the bank quite quickly. Not to mention any real favors from contacts have a price... and bribes - the Sixth World is run on bribes.
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Method
post Jul 17 2009, 03:10 AM
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I agree that shadowruning should pay well. A character could just hack passing commlinks or steal cars without getting shot at or pissing off a megacorp (generally speaking). If they are supposed to risk their lives, they should be making more than the going price for a stolen Americar.
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rob
post Jul 17 2009, 06:09 AM
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I find pricing runs one of the most interesting part of the run itself, but I like the role-playing challenge and the kind of systematic planning aspect. Standard prices for runs are an easy way to do stuff if you're primarily interested in the conduct of the run itself; if you're more interested in 'the whole operation,' I prefer kind of a bidding-aspected negotiation. I won't speak to standard run prices, more of a way to negotiate run prices IC or manage the negotation as a GM.

Basically, looking at the negotiation from an external point of view, you have the shadowrunners, who (more or less in order, depending on the characters values) want to 1) survive, 2) make a profit, and 3) work themself into a better position for future runs. You have the Johnson, who wants to (more or less in order, but HIGHLY dependent on the nature of the run) 1) accomplish the mission, 2) not give out too much information (fundamentally, not accrue additional personal or professional risk), 3) maximize positive externalities (reliable assets, etc) and 4) minimize cost.

As a player, I assume the Johnson is more interested in getting the mission done than minimizing cost - that's just an added bonus, that he might even waive for 3. So, he's presenting basically the bare minima of a contract, and we're bidding on it. I already know how much profit I want from the run (which is an internal calculation based on how long it will probably take and what kind of wage I think my status can command). I want enough outlines of the contract to determine what I need to survive, and what additional preparations I need to spend money on to minimize risk (i.e., new IDs, travel, etc.). If the Johnson doesn't want to divulge information, that's fine, but my additional preparation estimate goes up by the amount of info he doesn't tell me, since I can't estimate risk and have to assume high. If he doesn't want to give me the price I bid for him, which is based on a reasonable (maybe highballed estimate, if I can convince him of it) estimate of expense, then I lose the contract, but don't accrue unreasonable risk. My biggest negotiating points for extra profit are 1) highballing the profit I can convince him of (by appearing more squared away and professional), 2) quoting market prices for costs that I can get cheaper through connections, and 3) getting him to pay for durable items (new guns, equipment, etc.) in my estimate of the stuff I'll need. During the run, I can increase profits by 1) going for bonuses, 2) minimizing consumption of resources, 3) looting/plundering/stealing extra stuff.

As a GM, I have a lot more authority to screw with the system, since I know what the Johnson really wants.... There's lots of games that I can play with the asymmetric information advantage I have.

Outside of this, meta-gaming, I know that the people involved want me to take the run, since nobody has fun if the run ends in the meet. So, I can have fun with the negotiation.
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Stahlseele
post Jul 17 2009, 07:10 AM
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QUOTE
Y'all seem to be a decent, friendly bunch as well, and helpful to newcomers in general.

Yeah, that's another evidence for light being faster than sound.
We seem that way, untill we open our mouths ^^
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TheOOB
post Jul 17 2009, 08:10 AM
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I've always kinda just estimated it. A Runner won't even get out of bed for less then 5k, and they should expect at least 10k for a run that will put them in serious danger. 2.5k per a point of expected karma(that is not bonus karma), is a good guideline. More if you want your team to have wiz gear, less if you want them to be undergeared. I would never go less then 1k per point of karma though.
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InfinityzeN
post Jul 17 2009, 01:28 PM
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Here you go...
QUOTE ('As a GM')
If you go lowball on the money, then the Magic types and TMs will advance far faster then the other types. Riggers and Sams are really money bound after a bit since drones/upgrades for drones cost big money and he Sam will have to have his old basic/alpha level stuff pulled out and new beta/delta level put in.

I shoot for ~$2.5k per expected point of Karma after expenses. That means if your expecting 8 karma for the game, each player should make about $20k after expenses and selling expected loot. Don't offer per player though, offer a big pot. If I had 5 players in the above, expected about $25k in expenses, and about $15k in loot then I would offer the team $110k for the run. If they keep cost down, loot smarter, bargain hard, etc then they come out with more money.


QUOTE ('As a Player')
To start with, the run has to offer me more money for the risk then normal crime. I normally start at $5k a day. To that, I modify by danger (None x0.5, low x1, moderate x1.5, high x2, insane x3), magic resistance (None x0.5, low x1, moderate x1.5, high x2, insane x3),expected expenses (None x0.5, low x1, moderate x1.5, high x2, insane x3), initial intel (Insane x0.5, high x1, moderate x1.5, low x2, none x3), optional: No Looting (x2), optional: No Trace (x2), optional: Dragon! (x2, increase to x4 for Greater Dragon), optional: Bugs! (x2)

This is how much I want for my slice before expenses. The Johnson can offer things other than cash, which can knock the pric down. Also, for close contacts, 'doing a favor' will knock it down by 50~75% with the size/number of favors they owe taken from the total discounted.
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Blade
post Jul 17 2009, 01:40 PM
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Each GM has his own pay scale. So the best would be to ask your GM how much the runners can expect to be paid in your SR-world.
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PirateChef
post Jul 17 2009, 01:46 PM
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QUOTE (TheOOB @ Jul 17 2009, 03:10 AM) *
I've always kinda just estimated it. A Runner won't even get out of bed for less then 5k, and they should expect at least 10k for a run that will put them in serious danger. 2.5k per a point of expected karma(that is not bonus karma), is a good guideline. More if you want your team to have wiz gear, less if you want them to be undergeared. I would never go less then 1k per point of karma though.


I used to think this way, but one of the Third edition books listed the average price of a run, and if I remember correctly, the highest was kidnapping, which had a pricetag of 7500, with assassination coming in at 5k. We were never sure if that meant per runner, or total, though paying per runner, while it makes sense from an OOC standpoint, doesn't stand up from an IC one. Apparently Shadowrunners are cheap...
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Stahlseele
post Jul 17 2009, 01:47 PM
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SR3 Companion had the price forWetWork around 80k i think.
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Blade
post Jul 17 2009, 01:56 PM
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QUOTE (PirateChef @ Jul 17 2009, 03:46 PM) *
while it makes sense from an OOC standpoint, doesn't stand up from an IC one.


I can find as many arguements supporting the idea that Shadowrunners should be expensive as arguments supporting the idea that Shadowrunners should be cheap... It's just a matter of how things work in your Shadowrun universe.
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PirateChef
post Jul 17 2009, 02:17 PM
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QUOTE (Blade @ Jul 17 2009, 08:56 AM) *
I can find as many arguements supporting the idea that Shadowrunners should be expensive as arguments supporting the idea that Shadowrunners should be cheap... It's just a matter of how things work in your Shadowrun universe.


That sentence was referring to paying jobs on a per runner basis, not to how cheap or expensive runners should be
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InfinityzeN
post Jul 17 2009, 02:24 PM
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The GM can say they pay as cheap as dirt in his world, but I'm not risking my highly skilled ass, the $200k of implanted ware, and the $50k of gear I personally bring for a couple grand. I'll just go out and run drugs or steal cars or something. Seriously, unless the player are build at street level their expendables cost (ammo, grenades, meds, etc) will be more then some games say they should earn. Don't know about you, but if it cost me more for a job then I can expect in payment then I'm not taking that job.
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Blade
post Jul 17 2009, 02:31 PM
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Yes there are lower and higher limit: runs should at least pay more than they cost and should cost M. Johnson less than they make him win. But between these extremes, the price of the run will depend on a lot of parameters that the GM controls (how many runners are there, how many jobs are there, how difficult it is for runners to earn money by other means, how necessary runners are for the corps...)
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AngelisStorm
post Jul 17 2009, 03:10 PM
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Also take into account that it's not Mr. J's deal if you (the runner) cannot live within your means. Alot of runs (most IC) don't require fancy bullets and a host of drones (meds are your own fault; getting hurt on the job is your deal). Basic economics of life omae.

Now, if the job requires expensive or expendable gear, that's another matter entirely. Either negotiate for extra funds for necessary equipment, get Mr. J to throw the needed gear in, or walk away. (No one seriously offers less than the run is going to cost.)

It's one reason I like to negotiate for reasonble expenses when I'm playing. (Which, btw, is where meds can come in. You can totally negotiate for a temp. docwagon contract, or for medical care from the corp. Yeah, they may kill you while your getting treatment, but runners negotiate for 'ware also, and they are under the knife there; same diff.) Either the Johnson can pay for reasonable expenditures, or he can pony up an expense account. Professionals cost after all.
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Kerrang
post Jul 17 2009, 03:11 PM
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I run a table with a very large group, in fact, we normally need 2 tables to seat everyone. I can't always count on everyone showing up for every session, so I typically end up presenting pay on a per runner basis. Pay scales vary widely, however, and depend on a wide variety of factors, but the offer the Johnson makes is never less than half of the maximum the party can get after negotiation. When negotiating, I always add any extra nuyen which the party negotiates to the 'on completion' sum, never to the up-front pay. Gear is a different story, if it is needed for the run and the runners negotiate for it, I give gear to them up front.

As far as pay scales are concerned, this will depend on the groups reputation, who the Johnson is, and of course the kind of job being offered. The first run or two I send any group on will usually be a milk run, and the pay offered is generally only about 1-2k per player. Once they get a rep for doing good work, and start attracting the attention of mid-level Johnsons, the pay scale averages more around 5-10k per runner for a typical run, and when the AAA corps start offering high end runs, the pay can go as high as 20k per runner.

Wetwork is always a different story, I only offer lump sums for taking someone out. The last wetwork mission I offered was 100k total to take out an undercover Lone Star officer, the Johnson was willing to go as high as 150k, but the groups Face botched his negotiation roll. I felt sorry for them and offered an additional 20k if they could make it look like an accident, but they screwed that up and made it look like suicide instead, so they only got half the bonus. At least the media presented it as a possible suicide, then the next day Lone Star started knocking on doors investigating it as a murder. Now the Johnson wants the 10k back, several fake SINs and paid up lifestyles were burned to shake Lone Star, and the group is a bit shy about doing wetwork (and they should be AFAIC).

Then there are the runs that don't pay anything. Helping out a friend or important contact, the party getting themselves out of trouble, etc. Usually something of value is offered, just not cash (or not much cash), and there will always be more chances at scoring pay data, or finding some nice gear that "fell off the back of a truck" when little or not pay is offered. My group is well aware of the dynamic, and will usually take the job, regardless of pay, as they know they will be compensated in some way, as long as they don't totally screw the pooch.
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Method
post Jul 17 2009, 03:42 PM
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The laws of economics are universal. And while covering your overhead is important, those costs are easily defined and finite. The real driving force behind negotiating a shadowrun is risk. The Johnson is trying to minimize the risk of takeing a loss by supplying the runners with the minimum amount of money, gear and info they need to get the job done. The runner is trying to minimize the risk of being seriously hurt, killed or captured. The fewer runs he can take on to sustain his lifestyle the lower his risk.

The reality is that any character with the skills and means to shadowrun could do something safer for less pay. Barring a personal vendetta or some other story-driven motive, a runner is at that table to make money. To argue anything else defys reason.
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Kerrang
post Jul 17 2009, 04:14 PM
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Risk is definitely a big factor in negotiations from the runners perspective. The problem being that Johnsons are typically not very forthcoming about the known risk factors, if they are even entirely aware of the risk. Runners usually have to assume that the Jonhson is holding something back, or does not know the full score, but this is not always the case either. As a GM, you are responsible for making sure your players have fun, and if they are not getting enough compensation for their runs, you can be assured that the fun quotient will be diminished. Offer them what you think is fair sum for the expected difficulty, and make sure they have chances to increase that amount through negotiations and loot. Ask for their feedback after the run, and if they are not happy with what they are getting paid, adjust the payout for the next mission accordingly.

Of course if they botch the job, or the mission is more personal in nature (not involving a Johnson per se) that is a different story.
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