[X] My Assistant

[Jason Farlander]

So... if you were to cut holes in a heavy-duty trashbag for your head and arms, what chemseal rating would that give you? Would "reinforcing" the trash bag with thick(ish) plasting sheeting and duck tape help?

Since you can get a rating 7 chemseal on an armored vest with plates (somehow those plates make the vest more chemsealable...), and that basically means that most chemicals will not penetrate it, how would the plastic vest be any different?

This situation came up in my last game when the runners discovered that they security at their target facility used chem weapons, but they didnt have the time to get "proper" chemsealed armor (the run was sheduled to take place the next day). On the fly, I decided to give them an effective chemseal rating of +2... but now I'm wondering if that was reasonable.

I'm also interested in the other sorts of low-cost solutions to problems that others have come up with... so if you have an example of such a thing, I'd like to hear it.

[Reaver]

[spotlite]

That is JUST the sort of thing my players would do. Fantastic. God I must never let them read this board....

[Reaver]

[RedmondLarry]

Our team got rain suits and rubber boots at the hardware store. Only one of our characters got infected, and he's just a carrier. :)

[Tom Collins]

Realistically, a trash bag wouldn't do you much good. It may help a little, but it'll be damn near immposible to seal properly and it's not going to keep vapors from leaking in like a true chemsuit would (of course, if vapors truly are a problem, they'd need respirators anyways). It may give them a minute or two to get their clothes off if the splash themselves with something, but thats about it. +2 sounds like a reasonable bonus to give them, for being creative if nothing else. I don't think I'd go above that though (unless they go out of their way to reinforce the bags, but Im not coming up with any way of doing it right now).

[Austere Emancipa...]

I dunno how easily a "heavy duty trashbag" rips, but I'm guessing too easily when your life's on the line.

I've never given much thought to the Armor Modifications, including Chemical Seals. If you want a low-cost solution, get a rain suit (be sure to get one with a good hood) and rubber boots (as OurTeam already mentioned), a pile of light plastic/latex and cotton gloves (wearing them in 3 layers, plastic+cotton+plastic), and a gas mask. If breathing the stuff isn't an issue, you can go with full-face plastic hood -- transparent with breathing holes preferably in the back or near the neck, located so that they open to the space between the transparent hood and the rain suit, and the rain suit has separate openings some distance away, kept open somehow that you can still breath.

That shouldn't be too expensive (probably less than 100 nuyen without the gas mask) and, if you duct tape all the joints, should protect you quite well against splashes. I might give such a set-up up to 8 points of ChemSeal. Will be slightly uncomfortable in hot places, however.

[boodah]

woot! ill keep this in mind, Reav!

:rotfl:

[Zazen]

[GoldenAri]

[/QUOTE]I might give such a set-up up to 8 points of ChemSeal.[QUOTE]
Wow, your generous. I'd give maybe a 4 or 5 to that, but I'd require Armor B/R rolls. Those hard rain suits should work though with a little modification as you said. I'd probably give a +1 to movement based TNs. But yeah, 2 points of chemical protection seems fair under the circumstances.

[Austere Emancipa...]

If correctly duct-taped, the person in question should have no openings on his body other than the breathing holes, which would require the liquid to travel in between the suits from around his face to behind his head/down his neck. Unless the chemical is extremely potent or capable of eating through that gear, the protection would be absolute.

Actually, it's so high because I was only thinking about liquids. Gases would be a different matter altogether, against those the set-up wouldn't be more than a 4 at best. With a gas mask it could get back up to 6 or 7, though.

[Jason Farlander]

[Panzergeist]

Holy crap, that just gave me an idea! I was wondering what the chemical seal rating of a condom was, then it hit me: What about a chemical gland that secretes poison into your semen? You could be a hooker-assasin. Of course, a cyberware chemical tank would be better, since it could be turned off.

[Tom Collins]

Guys, realize that short of specifically designed suits, not much will offer you complete protection. I have to wear different gloves in lab when Im working depending on what Im working with, because one polymer will not protect me against everything. What works well against acids or bases may be suceptable to some organics. They used ralatively specialized materials and treatments in the hazard suits. Because of this, most stopgag measures just dont work well. Also realize that the pore sizes in your standard garbage bag may let vapors through like terry clothe. Whether or not they have to worry about vapors depends on what they are wearing. If its an aquaeous soln. of, say, HCl or KOH, I wouldn't worry. Phosgene on the other hand, would definately be bothersome (a small molecule that turns into HCl in your lungs is definately something that I highly doubt would be kept out by duct tape and you wouldn't want to breath in). Biohazards are something else entirely. Most bios are large molecules that probably wouldn't penetrate the plastic, but virii might.

I would say the +2 should be the maximum. If people are really interested, I might be able to dig up some hard facts, but Im rather busy so it may take a while.

[Siege]

Tom's insights notwithstanding, do you really want to entrust your safety to the ability of a converted garbage bag to repel chemicals, toxins and related things that go squish in the air?

-Siege

[Herald of Verjig...]

[Cain]

I'd add a +1 for creativity. Realistically, even with duct tape, there's plenty of micropores for things to leak through. Trash bags also tear rather easily, from simple walking-around. (When I took my Christmas tree to the recycling place, I started with it in a heavy duty trashbag. When I got there, I had a tree with plastic bits on it.)

[Crusher Bob]

If the chemical agents don't have very low dosages, the amount that leaks through the garbage bag might not be enough to do the deed. If they are trying to avoid the squirtguns of death ™ then giveing them a +3 or +2 sounds fine. If they are trying to avoid some much better method of chemical delivery, they are probably out of luck.

[Birdy]

Dumb Question:

What do you need protection against?

I mean basic NBC gear still is a rubberized poncho and a gas<<<NBC mask. Giving you the choice between drowning in your sweat and dying by the chemical agent.

A lot of the (military) stuff can be stopped by heavy duty rubber trousers / jackets like the stuff worn by channel workers and a mask since it is a liquid (Most WWI chemical agents I.E, Teargas, Pepperspray)

If you seek protection against the WWII and later stuff (Tabun, Sarin, VX and the other nerve agents) you'll basically need a classic MOPP suit. You might (for short exposure) get away with mask, rubber poncho, waterproof boots (some mil. boots are actually) and a complete coverage of all skin.

With all milspec agents make sure you get rid of the stuff before undress.

Some milspec agents are multi-component stuff, some for clogging the mask-filter and some for killing you.


Birdy

Q: Why are those recruits performing constant NBC drill?
A: Don't know. Give me another of the signal cartridges. Must me multi-star red again since the last was white.
(Hint Multistar Red - NBC alert ;-) Sadly, this happened IRL)

[Austere Emancipa...]

Tom: Corrosive substances are another matter entirely. I don't think any of us was suggesting that these set-ups would be a significant defense against them. I was thinking about the Squirtguns of Death™, like Bob put it, when I was discussing protection against liquids, and maybe other similar attacks, like capsule rounds with generic nasties (Narcoject etc) inside. The suit I described should prove a pretty good defense against those kinds of threats.

Basically, what I typed in was a "Product Improved" version of the military NBC-protection mentioned by Birdy. With the gas mask, it should be more effective against standard gases than a basic military set-up, allowing for longer exposion (because there aren't any significant holes where the chemical might leak in).

[Zazen]

[Austere Emancipa...]

'sright. Works miracles.

[spotlite]

[Birdy]

[Austere Emancipa...]