Dealing with Hack 'n Slashers, Making players think Options

[toturi]

That's a pretty hardcore and, IMHO immature player if they take that particular lesson away from the encounter; I would probably have tried to screen for that level of calousness ahead of time.

And Shadowrun is not about playing hardcore criminals killing people for money? It is very mature in its own way, just perhaps not the way you like it.

[LowKey]

It was actually one of the rare times where something like that didn't cause any problems, the offending player actually apologised out of role play once the whole story came out (although it was never properly discovered in game). Fortunate in this case, but I fully agree that its a dangerous road that isn't encouraged.

[Kerenshara]

And Shadowrun is not about playing hardcore criminals killing people for money? It is very mature in its own way, just perhaps not the way you like it.

*shakes head*

Sorry, I'm choosing not to rise to that particular bait.

I described a scene as a way to drive a message (lesson) home to players who had gotten a little too cavalieer about what they were doing; I wasn't trying to suggest that killing doesn't happen for money. Drek, Kerenshara's a paid assasin for the love of Pete. But there's a diference between the application of "facial ballistics" (I owe somebody a nickel) for money, genuine wetwork, and then pure thuggery.

Shadowrun is about MORE than just "playing hardcore criminals killing people for money" all the time. If that's all you're doing... well, IMHO you're missing a lot of the potential of the 6^th World. Shadowrunners are breakers of the law, for certain sure, and they are at best anti-heroes; That doesn't necessarily codify them into the popular cultural stereotype/image of "hardcore criminals". On the other hand, even "hardcore criminals" IRL don't always fit those stereotypes and images; Many of them actually have a stronger sense of honor and code of ethics than some "straight, law-abiding" people I have known, and certainly many of them would view people like Bernie Madoff or the executives of present-day Wall Street as the REAL criminals.

It's all a matter or perspective and degree. I don't WANT to play with people who are interested only in portraying cinematic "hardcore criminals" and who would use that as an excuse to turn the game into a first-person-shooter whose only requirement for hand-eye-coordination and practice is picking up and rolling a handfull of dice. Combat (and killing) happens, often, but it should be an accent to the story line, not a substitute for one.

[toturi]

*shakes head*
It's all a matter or perspective and degree. I don't WANT to play with people who are interested only in portraying cinematic "hardcore criminals" and who would use that as an excuse to turn the game into a first-person-shooter whose only requirement for hand-eye-coordination and practice is picking up and rolling a handfull of dice. Combat (and killing) happens, often, but it should be an accent to the story line, not a substitute for one.

Correct. You do not want to play with such people, but it does not mean that their way of playing it is wrong, even if you are their GM. It all depends on the story, it can just as easily be that the story is combat and killing. You want to make it such that the story is more than just combat, as the GM, that is your perogative but it does not stop your players from playing the way they want to either.

[CodeBreaker]

*shakes head*

Sorry, I'm choosing not to rise to that particular bait.

I described a scene as a way to drive a message (lesson) home to players who had gotten a little too cavalieer about what they were doing; I wasn't trying to suggest that killing doesn't happen for money. Drek, Kerenshara's a paid assasin for the love of Pete. But there's a diference between the application of "facial ballistics" (I owe somebody a nickel) for money, genuine wetwork, and then pure thuggery.

Shadowrun is about MORE than just "playing hardcore criminals killing people for money" all the time. If that's all you're doing... well, IMHO you're missing a lot of the potential of the 6^th World. Shadowrunners are breakers of the law, for certain sure, and they are at best anti-heroes; That doesn't necessarily codify them into the popular cultural stereotype/image of "hardcore criminals". On the other hand, even "hardcore criminals" IRL don't always fit those stereotypes and images; Many of them actually have a stronger sense of honor and code of ethics than some "straight, law-abiding" people I have known, and certainly many of them would view people like Bernie Madoff or the executives of present-day Wall Street as the REAL criminals.

It's all a matter or perspective and degree. I don't WANT to play with people who are interested only in portraying cinematic "hardcore criminals" and who would use that as an excuse to turn the game into a first-person-shooter whose only requirement for hand-eye-coordination and practice is picking up and rolling a handfull of dice. Combat (and killing) happens, often, but it should be an accent to the story line, not a substitute for one.

Agreed. CodeBreaker's first priority above all else is protecting the Digital Intelligence that he sees as his responsibility. He knows that if he worked for a corp there is a good chance he would not be able to do that, either he would not make enough money to pay for its upkeep (It is a high level AI, it needs a fair bit of funds being channeled into its Node) or the corp would confiscate it as property.

Now, if CodeBreaker needs to kill someone to do his job, he will. He knows that with the work he does, sometimes there will be casualties. But those casualties should be kept to a minimum, if not only for moral reasons but because lots of people dieing tends to attract attention. What does it matter to Ares if I steal project data worth 250,000 Nuyen. They have backups, they have the researchers to continue advancement on that project, and chances are they will still release the product before the people I steal the pay data for.

But if I kill a security guard? Well that raises problems. First, LoneStar is going to be interested. That Guard was probably a citizen of both Ares and the UCAS, so LoneStar has jurisdiction and that can lead to problems with people poking about where you don't want them. Then you have to pay out a potentially large some of Nuyen to the guards Widow. Then you have to deal with some stupid reporter asking questions about the gunfight that happened in a supposedly unused warehouse that doesn't hold anything according to public records, if only because the public loves a good Shadowrun Gone Bad.

Simply because I sometimes kill a guy doesn't mean I don't value life, and doesn't mean I wouldn't feel like shit for killing a supposedly fairly innocent young woman who was pregnant. Its the same reason I refuse to do wetwork. Its not worth the attention, and its not worth the morality discussions. Honestly, if you were a person in the 6th World who was solely interested in blasting people in the face with oversized weapons, there are probably better paying career options than 'Runner.

[The Jake]

One of the things I did with my PCs, as part of a social experiment if you will - was to test them and see where their conscience was and what sort of jobs they'd take. I gave them everything up to - and including - messy and public wetwork jobs that required the family of the mark were there to witness the kill. They did the job but it left a very sour taste in their mouths and generally speaking, reluctant to do wetwork (even if they are good at it).

It culminated in a session where they were caught with their pants down, entering the hive of an insect shaman who was also a convicted paedophile and using child as vessels. The look on their faces as they realised exactly what it was they were onto was priceless - utter revulsion. The PCs were in a position where they were "asked" to help him find one more child (the one that he was planning on prepping into a Queen) under pain of ritual sorcery to kill one the PCs.

One of the PCs turned around and made a comment something along the lines of this:

"We might be assassins, part time drug dealers, arms dealers, thieves, terrorists and worse. But there is no way in hell I am getting him that kid!"

They realised that for all the things they do, there are some lines even they won't cross.

- J.

[Warlordtheft]

And Shadowrun is not about playing hardcore criminals killing people for money? It is very mature in its own way, just perhaps not the way you like it.

Toturi-I think that the level of darkness (or evil or what have you) is really up to the group dynamic. Do you have players that want to be mercenary sell swords or hooders that want to stick to the man and protect the defenseless.

[toturi]

Toturi-I think that the level of darkness (or evil or what have you) is really up to the group dynamic. Do you have players that want to be mercenary sell swords or hooders that want to stick to the man and protect the defenseless.

I agree and while the GM may try to set the tone, it does not necessarily follow that his players will follow suit.

[Mäx]

But if I kill a security guard? Well that raises problems. First, LoneStar is going to be interested. That Guard was probably a citizen of both Ares and the UCAS, so LoneStar has jurisdiction and that can lead to problems with people poking about where you don't want them. Then you have to pay out a potentially large some of Nuyen to the guards Widow. Then you have to deal with some stupid reporter asking questions about the gunfight that happened in a supposedly unused warehouse that doesn't hold anything according to public records, if only because the public loves a good Shadowrun Gone Bad.

If any of that happens somebody at Ares cover-up team messed up real bad.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

[PirateChef]

Heh. I remember reading somewhere that corps would take out life insurance policies on their people, so it actually benefited them if you killed guards, as opposed to just wounding them. Of course, kill enough and you have insurance investigators coming after you, and those guys make LoneStar look like wimps.

[TheGothfather]

Hi All,

I'm running a SR4 campaign with a bunch of players who's default response to a situation is to hit it with a big stick. While I haven't got a problem with this tactic, as we're all there to have fun, I have noticed that a couple of more 'matured' players and myself are not getting the same fulfillment out of the missions.

The alternative is that I throw runs at the team which involve a bit more thinking, but them the team stop thinking and practically need to be walked through the scenarios. I ended up in a situation where the group spent about 5 hours planning a run that was meant to take 2. I have asked some of the players for their advice as I felt that I was making the runs too complicated, but individually they perfectly understand the mission and what to do.

So I'm looking for some advice on getting players to think in a game setting, and working more in a group setting. Anything that I could try would be good, as I think beating up everything in range is going to get old. Fast.

This is the solution to your problem. Yes, I know you're not running a dungeon, but the principle still applies. Also, you wind up making the players do all the work for you, which is always awesome.

[HappyDaze]

I agree and while the GM may try to set the tone, it does not necessarily follow that his players will follow suit.

Tell me about it...

My group regularly suprises me with callous and brash acts. Cutting up a target - taking her torso away in a plasitic bag after cutting her head and limbs away while she was still alive and trapped in freeze foam - was about the most brutal example that I can share.

[Demon_Bob]

For some reason the show Leverage reminds me of what I consider the ideal Shadow-run team.

The higher the cost in property damage, stolen property (physical or intelectual), or the more gruesome, the greater the chance that someone will feel the need to investigate further. Part of shadow-run is trying to leave evidence behind. No matter how good the hacker he wont be able to edit every camera could capture thier image, providing he can find them all. Not all cameras will be wireless or transmitt anything, some will just record. Some cameras very can just be set up to only transmitt (no wireless reciever). Every cellphone has a camera it so why not com-links and some visual enhancers. Now with these glasses not only can you zoom in on your favorite sporting event but you can replay and freeze frame.

Err. Got off topic.
A mission your team might enjoy may involve a well planned combination of subtle violence and indiscriminate cons.
"No battle plan survives contact with the enemy." "War is a matter of expedients." - Helmuth von Moltke the Elder.

One thing a gm of mine did, though I don't know if it was intentional but lead to our group trying to aim for less combat, was after a run that the plan was going in there and shoot everyone. When we were laying low we saw some media coverage about our run. The LoneStar officer said that the perps were obviously amateurs do to their sloppy work and would likely be caught quickly.

I like this. News blurbs afterwards mentioning the occasional run or its effects in someway.