Ghouls: Do you tolerate them? Options

[Marduc]

Sorry you're mistaken. (I wish you weren't though, it would make live a lot easier)

Augmentation p 130

The Power of a disease represents its potency. In most cases,
Power represents the DV (Stun or Physical) inflicted by the
substance, as noted under Effect. This damage is reduced with a
Disease Resistance Test (see below); if the damage is reduced to
0, no other effects apply unless specifically noted. In the case of
diseases that do not inflict actual damage, Power is still used to determine
other effects; if the Disease Resistance Test fails to reduce
the Power to 0 (just like DV), then other effects apply.
Even if Power is reduced to 0, the character remains infected
until she has made all of the requisite Disease Resistance Tests (see
Speed, above). Only after the minimum number of tests have been
made and the Power reduced to 0 is the disease defeated.
A disease’s Power can escalate, as noted under Accumulating
Power, below.

This clearly says that you need to make all of the minimum number of tests.
The book states 'if the pathogen's Power is not reduced to zero...' because if it is reduced to zero there is ZERO power accumulation. Thus it doesn't need to define this as such.
The writer could easily have removed the sentence.

[toturi]

Sorry you're mistaken. (I wish you weren't though, it would make live a lot easier)

Augmentation p 130



This clearly says that you need to make all of the minimum number of tests.
The book states 'if the pathogen's Power is not reduced to zero...' because if it is reduced to zero there is ZERO power accumulation. Thus it doesn't need to define this as such.
The writer could easily have removed the sentence.

I never claimed that you needn't make the requisite number of tests. You still do. However you have beat the test once - power is zero; therefore now at power zero, you do it the necessary number of times.

The book states 'if the pathogen's Power is not reduced to zero...' because it is necessary to differentiate between when the accumulation applies. It applies when "the power is not reduced to zero". That sentence is needed to define when the accumulation applies.

[Marduc]

aug p 129

Speed
A pathogen’s Speed represents the incubation period between
initial exposure and the first Disease Resistance Test. It also
represents its period of effect—how long before the effects kick in
again, and another Disease Resistance Test must be made.
The number in parentheses is the minimum number of
Disease Resistance Tests the character must make. Even if a previous
test reduces the Power to 0, the character remains infected
and must make another test to resist the effects again after Speed
duration has passed, until the minimum number of tests have
been made.

My take on the previous quote and this one toghether, say that even if you reduce the power of the disease to zero in one test, in the subsequent one, if still within the minimum number of tests, you test against the full power of the test.
It can be argued that net hits of the disease resistance test can carry over to the subsequent test.

[toturi]

aug p 129



My take on the previous quote and this one toghether, say that even if you reduce the power of the disease to zero in one test, in the subsequent one, if still within the minimum number of tests, you test against the full power of the test.
It can be argued that net hits of the disease resistance test can carry over to the subsequent test.

No, the quote does not state that you test against the full power of the test. It only states that you need to make a test again to resist the effects; now that you have reduce the disease's power to zero, it should be easy to do so.

[Zormal]

toturi, I understand now how you're reading the paragraph, and I must say I'd prefer it your way (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
But looking at the sentence structure, I don't think that sentence applies to the whole paragraph.

Besides, why would there be mandatory resistance tests against a target number of 0? Is that a test at all? How would incurable diseases (under Speed) work if you'd just have to make the resistance test once to be rid of all of the effects for good? What else is there to resist in a disease beside its effects? Why would we even have a minimum number of tests instead of tests where the pathogen's Power accumulates?

Even though it seems better from a gameplay perspective, I don't think it works from the rules point of view.

[toturi]

toturi, I understand now how you're reading the paragraph, and I must say I'd prefer it your way (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
But looking at the sentence structure, I don't think that sentence applies to the whole paragraph.

Besides, why would there be mandatory resistance tests against a target number of 0? Is that a test at all? How would incurable diseases (under Speed) work if you'd just have to make the resistance test once to be rid of all of the effects for good? What else is there to resist in a disease beside its effects? Why would we even have a minimum number of tests instead of tests where the pathogen's Power accumulates?

Even though it seems better from a gameplay perspective, I don't think it works from the rules point of view.

It is workable from a rules point of view. Whether there is a point to it remains debatable. In fact, there is nothing that says that a threshold has to be more than 0.

Hypothectically speaking, there is a disease of Power 6, Penetration 0, Speed 1 day(7). You have O Cells at rating 6. The power of that disease is now zero but you still have to make that roll for the next seven days.

[Marduc]

Required protection for Ghoul fighters

Nephritic Screen (Rating 4), 0.4 essence, 40,000Â¥
Pathogenic Defense (Rating 6), 0.6 essence, 60,000Â¥
O-Cells (Rating 9), 22,500Â¥
Nanohive (Rating 1), 0.75 essence, 10,000Â¥


Total essence cost 1,75
Total cost 132,500Â¥


Total number of dice on disease resistance test 19

Buff with prophylacsis and cure disease spells

Now you can beat the disease

[toturi]

Required protection for Ghoul fighters

Nephritic Screen (Rating 4), 0.4 essence, 40,000Â¥
Pathogenic Defense (Rating 6), 0.6 essence, 60,000Â¥
O-Cells (Rating 9), 22,500Â¥
Nanohive (Rating 1), 0.75 essence, 10,000Â¥


Total essence cost 1,75
Total cost 132,500Â¥


Total number of dice on disease resistance test 19

Buff with prophylacsis and cure disease spells

Now you can beat the disease

It depends. All you need might just be O Cells. O Cells reduce the Power of any viral or bacterial pathogen. If Penetration work like its Armor Penetration counterpart as described, then O Cells can presumably drop the Power to zero and still have capacity left over.

The way O Cells work, it doesn't protect you so much as it hurts the pathogen.

[hobgoblin]

The rules aint changed from RC as far as I can tell so this debate is either solved some place or a long time coming. However I will quote fluff to may be the correct way of treating this contact vector.

in other words, a ghoul can grab your uncovered arm at no risk, but pray that it never scratch you deep enough to draw blood, sounds reasonable to me.

[KCKitsune]

Required protection for Ghoul fighters

Nanohive (Rating 1), 0.75 essence, 10,000Â¥

Why get a Nanohive at rating 1 when you can just get a cyber hand/foot and get the nanohive installed for only 1/2 of the capacity. Sure it costs 5000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) more, but it saves you .5 Essence and you can install a commlink or something else without using any more Essence. Hell, in the future, you can upgrade the Nanohive and still not use any Essence.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Total number of dice on disease resistance test 19

No. The point of O-Cells is that they directly reduce Power, and the Nanite classification makes them work against HMHVV at all, as well as keeping their raiting from being reduced by Penetration.

With a Nano-Biomonitor, they rate +1, BTW... and thus reduce the Power to 0 for HMHVV III and to 3 for the first to.

[JTNLANGE]

It is workable from a rules point of view. Whether there is a point to it remains debatable. In fact, there is nothing that says that a threshold has to be more than 0.

Hypothectically speaking, there is a disease of Power 6, Penetration 0, Speed 1 day(7). You have O Cells at rating 6. The power of that disease is now zero but you still have to make that roll for the next seven days.

I think I agree with the power being zero, but still having to make a test as you could glitch and reinfect maybe?

Trevor L.

[otakusensei]

I came over from the Running Wild thread because I figured this info was relevant to my interests.

What's with trying to "win" against the folks that write our books? Why push some houserule agenda? If you think you can do anybetter, why aren't we playing your game?

Seriously folks.

I like the stuff about infectious populations thinning out, "sane" ghouls seeing to it that the rest stay responsible members of society. The Fallout comparison was a good one, and really does put things in perspective considering ghoul rights.

Of course if you didn't want to think of way that the RAW could work you could assume that things are awful and every ghoul is an insane madman who lives only to spread the disease. That the devs are all madmen who want nothing more than to drive the franchise into the group and they intend to start with an attack at your gaming table.

But I don't think that's true. For one thing I think ghouls should be run in a more thoughtful and frankly interesting way. If it feel like Left4Dead and you aren't running a Zombierun game you're doing it wrong. Reading the frankly disturbing stuff this thread opened with sounded more like the KKK rising up against Captain Planet villains than a discussion about Shadowrun rules.

As a GM I've tossed feral ghouls and NPC ghoul contacts at my players. I even ran an arc that ended with the players defending a building in the barrens from a literal truckload of hungry feral ghouls and generous helping of smoke grenades. Everyone had a blast, we ran it RAW with Runners Companion and everyone got out alive because everyone kept their head. Plus they had lucky rolls and heavy combat armor on their side, that never hurts. It wasn't all sealed hazmat suits, but then again the contact vector doesn't "tag , you're it." because that would make no sense what so ever. And it isn't going against the rules to deny a player the dice from his chemsuit after infection because he remembered to throw it on before rolling his test.

I guess what I'm saying is that it doesn't count as house rules to use common sense in game. You don't "win" by pointing out faults in the game, and you certainly don't by twisting intentions and working from suppositions in order to create those faults. It's this type of shit that makes me stop reading Dumpshock every few months, and people like Ancient History that drag me right back.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

[...]but then again the contact vector doesn't "tag , you're it." because that would make no sense what so ever.

See, you'r pushing a houserule right there. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[TheForgotten]

In augmentation p129



Emphasis mine.

This clearly states that if you beat the disease power during the first ten tests you still need to take the remainder of the tests.

I'm a bit confused on the various disease rules. Can somebody post a die roll by die roll example of how this disease works (say using a body score of 12, if it's passed by skin to skin contact and body 12 can't resist it, the entire human race is ghouls by now).

[Medicineman]

Body 12 is Ridiculosly High
the Average Norm has 3 ,Ork 5
Make it a CON 6 with 2 additional successes from a Rating 6 Medkit adding its successes in a Team Pool (if a Team pool is possible at all)

with an interested Dance
Medicineman

[Neraph]

See, you'r pushing a houserule right there. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Actually, it's a house rule no matter which way you rule it. In the SR4 core book, ghouls have no game-stat mechanic for spreading HMHVV, only a fluff suggestion, and even in Runner's Companion they don't have the Infection power. It's all a matter of DM fiat on what contact exposes and which doesn't.

I'm a bit confused on the various disease rules. Can somebody post a die roll by die roll example of how this disease works (say using a body score of 12, if it's passed by skin to skin contact and body 12 can't resist it, the entire human race is ghouls by now).

Assuming a Body 12, the roll-by-roll goes thus:

One day after contact, you would roll your 12 body, trying to "reduce" a "Damage Value" of 8 (the disease's Power). If you have anything that helps you with rolls against that, then you subtract 6 from those dice (the disease's Penetration). For example, a dwarf with a R6 Chem Suit would only get an extra 2 dice, not the full 8 (8 - 6 = 2). If you fail to drop the Power of the disease to 0, you suffer the effects. Even if you do reduce the power to 0, you still have to make the minimal number of Disease Resistance Tests (in this case, 10) before you are free of the possibility of Infection (this time...).

If you do not reduce the Power of the Disease to 0, then you take the effects; in this case, losing 0.1 points of Essence. As noted, if your Essence drops to 0, your character dies. Failing a Disease Resistance Test is a Very Bad Thing, as the disease will escalate. This means that if you failed to fully resist the disease, you add the remaining number to the power of the next Disease Resistance Test.

In the above example, a 12 body character with no other help rolls his dice... and gets 7 successes! He drops the power of the attack to 1. Since he did not drop it to 0, he still takes 0.1 Essence damage (drain?), and the next day, when he has to test again, the modified Power of the disease will be 9.

A character will have to make 10 Disease Resistance tests total. In the above example, if the character had made an amazing roll (or Edged it) and dropped the disease's Power to 0, then he would dodge the bullet (this time). However, the following day he would have to make the exact same test, with the exact same possibilities (having to resist a Power 8 Disease Resistance Test, failure costs him 0.1 Essence, and the excess Power left over is added to the next day's Test).

And lastly, in response to why the whole world isn't HMHVV yet, the answer is simple: Machine Guns, Drones, Full Chemical Seals, and Vehicles. You don't have the risk of Infection if they can't get close enough to Contact you.


EDIT::

Body 12 is Ridiculosly High
the Average Norm has 3 ,Ork 5
Make it a CON 6 with 2 additional successes from a Rating 6 Medkit adding its successes in a Team Pool (if a Team pool is possible at all)

with an interested Dance
Medicineman

That wouldn't work at all, since those extra 2 dice from the medkit would be negated by the disease's Penetration. Example character is a ghoul, he just needs to realize it. For the sake of arguement, I did my above example using the suggested Body 12.

[InfinityzeN]

Actually my players were the ones who discovered just how nasty K-HMHVV was while reading RC and freaked out.

Comparing Ghouls in SR to Ghouls from Fallout doesn't work very well.
* Ghouls in Fallout are the result of a mutation from to many rads, are not infectious (unless you count the weird glowing ones, which will just mostly kill you from rad poisioning), do not have exceptional physical stats (in fact it gimps them), and are not required to eat people (or parts there off) to live.
* Ghouls in SR on the other hand, are the result of a highly nasty virus and are stupid crazy infectious (to the point of literally one person could infect whole cities in a couple weeks if done right), are extremely strong and tough with nasty natural attacks, and are required to eat your standard human to live.

In my game, Ghouls still have their "But they are people too!" status with the corpers and other people living in the safe areas. Most of them have never seen a wild ghoul at all and in fact the few that have met one, it was born as a ghoul. The street livers, the low lifes, and the others living outside the safe zones on the other hand are totally in the 'KILL IT WITH FIRE!!!' camp. Of course, the security forces everywhere keep a very close eye on any ghouls (as in 24/7) and are more then ready to terminate with extreme pregadus.

[Ancient History]

Okay, we can do that.

Hypothetical scenario: Pachinko Mike is kicking ghoul ass in his Mitsuhama EE suit, whose full chemical seal protects him from infection as he plows through the critters with his handy assault rifle. After all is said and done, Mike pops off the hood to smoke a cigar. One of the ghouls has a bit of life left in him and tries to sneak up on Mike, but Mike catches the movement at the last minute and pops the cannibal in the head - sending blood and brains all over him, including in his mouth.

Uh-oh Mike. The GM decides you've been infected from your contact. Time to start rolling.

Twenty-four hours after his initial exposure, Mike feels like crap. Now, because he's a burly adept, he has Magic 6, an effective Body of 9, and defensive systems Natural Immunity 6 (adept power) and Pathogenic Defense 6 (implant). HMHVV-III has a Power of 8 and Penetration -6. The Penetration reduces the bonus dice from his protective systems, so he only receives (6 + 6 - 6) 6 dice from his Natural Immunity and Pathogenic Defense. Rolling his (9 + 6) 15 dice, he rolls well and scores 7 hits - enough to reduce the Power to 1, but not to eliminate it entirely, so he suffers the effects of the disease: Pain, Nausea, and 0.1 Essence loss, which brings Mike's Essence down to 5.2.

In his second day of infection, the remaining power from the previous day (Power 1) is added to the Power of the disease, so the effective power of the disease is (8 + 1) 9. Again rolling his (9 + 6) 15 dice, Mike is again lucky as hell and rolls seven successes, reducing the Power to 2 - but again, that's not enough to eliminate it entirely, so he suffers the effects of the disease: Pain, Nausea, and 0.1 Essence loss, which brings Mike's Essence down to 5.1.

Coming on the third day of infection, Mike goes to see a shaman friend of his, who correctly diagnoses the disease and casts a Cure Disease spell. The magician takes a penalty for the Essence loss Mike has already suffered from implants and disease (-1 modifier to the spellcasting test), but she gets 5 net hits, which Mike can add to his test. The Power of the disease is now (8 + 2) 10, and Mike rolls (9 + 6 + 5) 20 dice, but only scores 6 hits, reducing its Power to 4, and he again suffers the effects of the disease: Pain, Nausea, and 0.1 Essence loss, which brings Mike's Essence down to 5.0.

Getting worried, Mike dips into his savings and buys three doses of Rock Lizard Blood from his shaman friend, a magical compound with a duration of (Essence + 6) hours that offers Immunity to Disease, which grants him (Magic x 2) extra dice on his test for today; for good measure he has the shaman cast Cure Disease on him again, this time getting 4 net hits. So when it's time for him to make his fourth test, the disease has a Power of (8 + 4) 12 and Mike is rolling (9 + 6 + 4 + 12) 31 dice. Mike gets 13 successes, reducing the Power to 0 for that test, and has twenty-four hours of relief from the effects of the virus - but it's still in his system.

On the fifth day, with no more Rock Lizard Blood, Mike again shells out for a Cure Disease spell, which this time renders 6 net hits. The Power of the disease is reset at 8, and Mike is rolling (9 + 6 + 6) 21 dice, but he doesn't roll any successes and suffers the full effects of the disease: Pain, Nausea, and 0.1 Essence loss - which drops his Essence to 4.9, and worse causes him to lose a point of Magic and a point of adept powers - in this case, 4 ranks of Natural Immunity! Things aren't looking good for Mike.

Day six after infection, Mike is desperately looking for a solution, but not coming up with much luck. The Power of the disease is (8 + (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) 16, and Mike can't hope to beat it, so he burns a point of Edge to pass the test and buy himself a little breathing space.

Day seven after infection, Mike has called in some favors, and now his shaman friend and her friends have gathered around to ritual-cast a Cure Disease spell on him, which comes up with a whopping 12 net hits. The Power of the disease is 8, and he rolls (9 + 2 + 12) 23 dice, just getting 7 hits and reducing the Power to 1. He suffers the usual round of Pain, Nausea, and Essence loss - his Essence is now at 4.8, and he's lost 0.5 Essence to the disease.

Day eight, Mike gets a call from a street doc who hooks him up with a Nephritic screen (rating 4) on short notice. Although it costs 0.4 Essence (bringing him down to 4.4), it offers 4 additional dice to protecting against the disease. The Power of the disease is (8 + 1) 9, and Mike rolls (9 + 6) 15 dice, scoring 6 successes. More Pain, more Nausea, more Essence loss - he's now at 4.3, and he's lost 0.6 Essence to the disease.

At the start of the ninth day, Mike's street docs starts him on a treatment of o-cells (rating 3). O-cells reduce the Power of the virus, which today has a Power of (8 + 3 - 3) 8. Mike rolls (9 + 6) 15 dice, scoring 5 successes. The familiar drill of Pain, Nausea, and Essence loss - he's now at 4.2, and he's lost 0.7 Essence to the disease.

Day ten, the street doc and shaman get together to try and drive this thing from Mike's system with O-cells (rating 3) and a Cure Disease spell (5 net hits). The Power of the disease is (8 + 3 - 3) 8, and Mike is rolling (9 + 6 + 5) 20 dice; he scores seven hits. His two friends can only look on as Mike suffers more Pain, more Nausea, and Essence loss - he's now at 4.1, and he's lost 0.8 Essence to the disease.

That said, it's not all bad news for Mike. The initial period of the disease is over, he's now made the ten required tests, and the Power of the disease will no longer accumulate.

Day eleven, the street doc administers another round of O-cells (rating 3), and the shaman tries another Cure Disease spell (8 net hits - yay overcasting). The Power of the disease is (8 - 3) 5, and Mike is rolling (9 + 6 + (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) 23 dice. Mike's GM lets the long-suffering player trade 4 dice in for a hit, and Mike easily gets more hits than he needs to reduce the disease's Power to zero. To everyone's relief, Mike sleeps quietly without the need for pain killers or anti-nausea drugs, and blood tests show the virus is gone from his system.

Of course, for his trouble Mike has lost 0.8 Essence to the disease. If he suffers another 0.2 Essence loss to HMHVV-III again, he's going to become a ghoul.

[Muspellsheimr]

but then again the contact vector doesn't "tag , you're it." because that would make no sense what so ever.

Vector
The vector is the method by which the disease infects the
host. Diseases spread by contact must touch the target’s skin.

I guess what I'm saying is that it doesn't count as house rules to use common sense in game.

Yes, it does. That is the entire point of most house rules.

You don't "win" by pointing out faults in the game

Depends on how you define 'win'. If 'winning' includes making a better game, yes, we do 'win' - many problems with the rules have been fixed because of this. However, many still remain.

[hobgoblin]

that adept better be a 1 level initiate (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Stahlseele]

. .and nobody thinks that HMHVV is stupid nasty by this time?
high magic and medicine brought together were NOT able to really stop it.
If the GM had not allowed the dice for hits he could still have failed again.
And even if he made it without becoming a ghoul THIS TIME around, he
lost one point of magic, one point of edge, money, and time AND KARMA.
Because he will need to get his edge up again. and get his magic up again.
maybe even more money and time to get his essence up again, if it works.
And next time a ghoul simply sneezes in his direction he can make a new
character, or am i missing something here?

[hobgoblin]

just brainstorming here, but could the -6 penetration be the issue?

that is, with such a high penetration, most protection options go out the window...

[Stahlseele]

THere would be one simple fix for this problem. infected are sterile and can't infect other people. only people BORN as ghouls can infect other people. that would make this problematic in a world wide view much less big. in a per character problematic it's still the 6 penetration . .

[Muspellsheimr]

just brainstorming here, but could the -6 penetration be the issue?

that is, with such a high penetration, most protection options go out the window...

The biggest problem is with the Contact vector.

My adjustment is to be:

Vector: Injection
Power: 6
Penetration: -2


I am considering reducing the power further to 5, & the interval to 1 week.
The disease remains highly dangerous, but at least this way there is a chance, even a reasonable one for PC's, of avoiding infection without absurd investment in antiviral magic, nanites, & burned Edge.