Ghouls: Do you tolerate them? Options

[hobgoblin]

Hmm, one thing to consider is that 1 days are more then enough time for a infected person to be isolated, and the symptoms show themselves as fast as 24 hours. If the strain had a longer time before symptoms showed, it would be really nasty, as then the person could really infect people for a long time, and they again for the same, before the powers that be catch on.

Thing is this, a smart ghoul will be careful about who he infects to not tip of his existence (unless he have gone in for sinner status, and whatever is required for that, maybe a rfid chip that broadcasts his infection to anyone in range), and fearal ghouls will be struck down by corps, gangs or lone star if they become to bold in their hunting behavior...

[Stahlseele]

Yeah, injection would make this a lot less scary in most cases.

[hobgoblin]

The biggest problem is with the Contact vector.

indeed, and the difference between fluff (open sores) and SR4's description of contact makes me wonder if there have been some kind of misunderstanding during the writing of RC (as RW seems to be a repeat of the details found there).

[hobgoblin]

just had a bit of fun looking at the list of diseases in augmentation to see what others had contact.

the ones i found where herpes, ads and mads (the two latter being magic related ones).

so is what we got here a cross between herpes and some sort of flu?

[Stahlseele]

Life is a sexually transmitted disease that's 100% lethal. Especially in the Case of Ghoul-Life.

[crizh]

I have to say that having read through this full thread it is my opinion that whoever wrote that particular section of RC didn't really understand the Disease mechanics.

HMHVV-III is significantly more virulent than both Vitas 3 and the Weaponised Ebola strain. Even with it limited to contact the whole sixth world would have turned into Resident Evil somewhere around 2052.

It is just not possible for 99.9% of the population to survive this infection and they are no doubt highly infectious during the initial 10 days. The infection would have been pandemic long before the first proper diagnosis came in. Not that a diagnosis would have done you any good, what with there being no treatment except for high velocity steel-jacketed lead.

On a positive note there is nothing in the Ghoul stat's to indicate that more than a tiny percentage of them have to be contagious.

They don't have Infection and once they suffer the transformation the disease halts. There is no reason not to rule that 5 to 10 days after that transformation their newly enhanced body has destroyed the virus, like it would any other virus, and is no longer contagious.

[Stahlseele]

Would be another way to look at it . .

[Muspellsheimr]

The progress halts, but the disease is still present. Otherwise, the process could be reversed, if not automatically, then through genetic treatments, which HMHVV specifically disallows because the virus is still present.

[crizh]

which HMHVV specifically disallows because the virus is still present.

Can you direct me towards a quote for that?

[otakusensei]

Someone brought up the subject a few pages back of how much contact equaled contact. That sounds like a GM call to me, not a house rule. A brief touch of skin to skin contact does not strike me as enough to transfer the disease. If you kill a ghoul with your bare hands you most definitely got it. If a ghoul briefly grabs your arm, I don't know if that would count. Personally I would say no, that there was not enough of the virus to take hold. We have to remember that as scary as HMHVV is, individual viruses are not microscopic terrorist supermen capable of destroying a human being as an army of one. And no, applying common sense to a situation is not a house rule. The numbers are still the same, the vector is still the same but in my game I decide how things played out between the digital nature of the RAW and the analog nature of roleplayed reality.

That's not to say I don't think the rules are a bit harsh. In AH's description it wouldn't be out of place to consider the character of Mike a specialist at surviving ghouls. He had two very specific advantages going in that I would not characterize as standard gear. Regardless of my feelings on it though, I'll be running it RAW in my games. Anyone who doesn't want to risk their precious little snowflake of a character can go play somewhere else.

And for the record, Muspellsheimr, no one can win if there is no contest. Unless you're a dev yourself that sort of rules out your opinion, don't it? I don't see how bitching about it like we have will end up bringing us a better game. Someone claiming superiority because they feel that something I like and enjoy is inherently broken pisses me off. You can houserule it, if you like, but you don't have to be a dick about it.

[Cardul]

Something to think about with AH's break down: Nano-hive+O-cells 8=Immunity to Ghouling...

[HappyDaze]

Regardless of my feelings on it though, I'll be running it RAW in my games.

So your whole bit about common sense is overruled by slavish devotion to mechanics that have been shown to be unbalanced. Shown by your hero AH even...

Whatever. You're going to my ignore list along with every other RAWdogger that fucks up good games by putting RAW over common sense.

[Critias]

Someone brought up the subject a few pages back of how much contact equaled contact. That sounds like a GM call to me, not a house rule.

That's generally true, but if and when a GM call goes against the rules as written, that is -- by definition -- a house rule. It's not good, it's not bad, but it's what it is.

A brief touch of skin to skin contact does not strike me as enough to transfer the disease.

Why not?

What is it about the text describing what is transferred via "contact" vector, in the rules as written, makes you think that brief skin on skin contact is not enough?

[Muspellsheimr]

Can you direct me towards a quote for that?

Genetech augmentations of any sort are not
available to the Infected at all, as the retrovirus in their systems resists
and rewrites any other attempt to alter the character's genetic
code.

Although, you might get away with Restoration & Cellular Repair, as they are not technically augmentations, but I think it's pretty clear that's not how it is supposed to work.

[Warlordtheft]

That's generally true, but if and when a GM call goes against the rules as written, that is -- by definition -- a house rule. It's not good, it's not bad, but it's what it is.


Why not?

What is it about the text describing what is transferred via "contact" vector, in the rules as written, makes you think that brief skin on skin contact is not enough?

Contact to me would be something more than a brush of the arm. A bite would be more of an injection. So somwhere in between is probably be where it is at. So it is a gm call if the contact would infect the person.

[TheForgotten]

It says contact, it uses the same rules as poisons seems to me that mean infection contact should be the same thing as contact poison contact. One touch and your screwed. If I'm not mistaken in RL Ebola is contact vector, touch an infected person and you're opening yourself to infection (it managed to pop up in an area of Africa where touching the dead is part of the funeral customs, towards the end of the outbreak they where wrapping bodies in plastic and throwing them into a hole as quickly and with as little contact as possible). Simply put contact vector is horribly infectious.

I believe under current US law the CDC could quarantine any infected individuals for life.

[toturi]

Although, you might get away with Restoration & Cellular Repair, as they are not technically augmentations, but I think it's pretty clear that's not how it is supposed to work.

Does previously infected with HMHVV but fought it off = Infected?

So your whole bit about common sense is overruled by slavish devotion to mechanics that have been shown to be unbalanced. Shown by your hero AH even...

Whatever. You're going to my ignore list along with every other RAWdogger that fucks up good games by putting RAW over common sense.

Then I would be proud to be on your ignore list then, hopefully somewhere right at the top. Pity though, I do not remember fucking up any good games yet.

[Patrick Goodman]

Given that a touch from a ghoul is enough to transform you in a ghoul (unless you regularily can roll 24 dices without a medkit in a body test), I am wondering who among you has characters, PCs and NPCs alike, tolerate ghouls near them. Working, living near them, maybe even with them.

As I said elsewhere, you're really reading way more into that statement than is actually there. It took the Kriegers over a decade of living with and working with ghouls 24/7/365 for them to contract the disease, and they weren't in chemsuits most of the time.

[Patrick Goodman]

But according to canon you shouldn't shoot them on sight. Only in "your little world" you can do that, and devs are glad that's the case.

Says who? I wrote the fucking thing, and I'd still advocate shooting them on sight in a lot of cases. The bounties were added in because a developer specifically asked for them, by the way, so saying that the devs don't want you shooting ghouls or other Infected is straight-up false.

[Patrick Goodman]

Maybe it's not a retcon, but a new development? The rising mana level has empowered the virus, making it more powerful and virulent than before? Ghouls have just started to make progress in being seen as people instead of beasts and then WHAM, this happens and things start to slide back. Pro and anti-ghoul rights people come into conflict on the streets, infections start spreading... Could be an interesting setup.

I fought to move the transformation time back to what it was in SR3, and lost. The rising mana level was what was given to me as the reason for the increased speed of transformation, and it seemed reasonable to me.

[HappyDaze]

Then I would be proud to be on your ignore list then, hopefully somewhere right at the top.

Sure. No problem. I'd do the same for anyone that thinks the (importance of RAW) > (importance of making sense), so don't feel too... special. OK, go ahead and feel special - but only if you can find a rule for it.

[Patrick Goodman]

And both Rotbart and myself argued against such stuff back when the Ghoul Utopia was introduced already.

Asamando as a ghoul nation was around a long time before Runner's Companion. BTW.

[Muspellsheimr]

As I said elsewhere, you're really reading way more into that statement than is actually there. It took the Kriegers over a decade of living with and working with ghouls 24/7/365 for them to contract the disease, and they weren't in chemsuits most of the time.

Problem with this. Your statement is supported by the fluff (aka not rules). Our position is supported by the cruch (aka rules). We do not (most, anyways) support this interpretation, we are just clarifying that it is Rules as Written, & thus a prime candidate for errata.

I'd do the same for anyone that thinks the (importance of RAW) > (importance of making sense), so don't feel too... special.

Well, I fully believe the 'importance of RAW' significantly outweighs the 'importance of making sense', because RAW is what everyone sees, & common sense can vary.

I do not always agree with RAW - I have a House Errata document as large as the official one, along with an entire Technomancer re-write. The difference is, in my games, the House Errata is RAW, & the rules as written are it. No interpretation involved. If a judgement call is made, it is either added to the House Errata, or clarified that it was a one-time event due to (now clarified) unclear rules.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Can you direct me towards a quote for that?

If they are still infectious, the virus is still there.

Although, you ]might get away with Restoration & Cellular Repair, as they are not technically augmentations, but I think it's pretty clear that's not how it is supposed to work.

The technical thing is that you need a DNA sample to restore to.

So all sterile born Ghouls are OOL - there is nothing to restore to, and all infectious Ghouls are pretty much OOL to, because the genetic reset would just result in reinfection, technically. (Dumping Restoration, Cellular Repair and O-Cells in one jar with an Infected might work.)

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Now, because he's a burly adept, he has Magic 6, an effective Body of 9, and defensive systems Natural Immunity 6 (adept power) and Pathogenic Defense 6 (implant). HMHVV-III has a Power of 8 and Penetration -6. The Penetration reduces the bonus dice from his protective systems, so he only receives (6 + 6 - 6) 6 dice from his Natural Immunity and Pathogenic Defense.

Implants are explicitly listed in the disease resistance test, as are protective systems - so they are not protective systems. As his Adepts powers on the other hand, are neither, Penetration can suck up and go home.

just brainstorming here, but could the -6 penetration be the issue?

So: No.

Penetration affecty only things that don't help against HMHVV at all (pharmaceuticals) or don't help in the long run (protective systems). Keeping your Chemsiut onf after infection doesn't help.