Ghouls: Do you tolerate them? Options

[toturi]

Sure. No problem. I'd do the same for anyone that thinks the (importance of RAW) > (importance of making sense), so don't feel too... special.

RAW always makes sense if you would but free your mind.

[Muspellsheimr]

Implants are explicitly listed in the disease resistance test, as are protective systems - so they are not protective systems. As his Adepts powers on the other hand, are neither, Penetration can suck up and go home.

So: No.

Penetration affecty only things that don't help against HMHVV at all (pharmaceuticals) or don't help in the long run (protective systems). Keeping your Chemsiut onf after infection doesn't help.

Anything that provides bonus dice to the Disease Resistance Test is a 'protective system'. Spells, adept powers, implants, dwarven resistance - all are affected by a diseases Penetration.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Asamando as a ghoul nation was around a long time before Runner's Companion.

Sure, but it only became The Utopia of the Walking Dead with Feral Cities.

I fought to move the transformation time back to what it was in SR3, and lost. The rising mana level was what was given to me as the reason for the increased speed of transformation, and it seemed reasonable to me.

Just that part never actually made it in the books - it's made to look like it always was that way.

[toturi]

Anything that provides bonus dice to the Disease Resistance Test is a 'protective system'. Spells, adept powers, implants, dwarven resistance - all are affected by a diseases Penetration.

Because it is described to work in a fashion similar to its Armor Penetration counterpart, it works against dice adders. But it depends on if any of those abilities mentioned above actually mentions "protective system" or uses any such similar wording. If so, then Penetration would explicitly work against those items that do and remains ambiguous as to whether it applies to the rest.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Anything that provides bonus dice to the Disease Resistance Test is a 'protective system'.

No. You misunderstood the point about providing dice when it comes to O-Cells: They are the only thing in doubt of being a protective system. But those provide dice, O-Cells do not - so that puts them out.

Spells, adept powers, implants, dwarven resistance - all are affected by a diseases Penetration.

No. The Disease Resistance Test lists protective systems, then implants, and medicines. Thus, neither medicine nor implants are protective systems - and only medicines are pharmaceuticals that are affected by penetration.

So Implants go free.

Trying to class qualities, adept powers and spells as protective systems isn't even part of the discussion - those are categories on their own.

[Fuchs]

Says who? I wrote the fucking thing, and I'd still advocate shooting them on sight in a lot of cases. The bounties were added in because a developer specifically asked for them, by the way, so saying that the devs don't want you shooting ghouls or other Infected is straight-up false.

That's a direct quote from Ancient History.

And if you really think Ghoulism is not as virulent as we think, kindly please change the rules so they match your fluff. As written, Kriegers would have gotten the infection in an afternoon in SR4.

[HappyDaze]

The difference is, in my games, the House Errata is RAW, & the rules as written are it.

Yes, but you've elected to devite from the rules when the rules provided do not make sense. You then replace the offical RAW with your own rules. I applaud that. What I abhor are foolish notions that the rules written in the books are inherently better than what any given group of intelligent gamers can come up with at their own table.

[DuctShuiTengu]

I'm a bit confused on the various disease rules. Can somebody post a die roll by die roll example of how this disease works (say using a body score of 12, if it's passed by skin to skin contact and body 12 can't resist it, the entire human race is ghouls by now).

Sure thing. (The following rolls were generated via an online diceroller app.

Day 1: 4, 5, 4, 5, 1, 3, 2, 3, 3, 4, 1, 2: only 2 hits. This leaves 6 power remaining. You lose 0.1 Essence and suffer pain and nausea for the day.

Day 2: the 6 remaining power from last time is added to the base 8 power, you're now facing a power of 14. You roll: 4, 6, 4, 2, 2, 5, 4, 2, 5, 2, 6, 6; 5 hits. Unfortunately, this still leaves 9 power remaining. You lose 0.1 Essence and suffer pain and nausea for the day.

Day 3: The 9 remaining power is again added to the base 8, for a total of 17. You roll: 6, 4, 5, 3, 4, 6, 6, 5, 2, 2, 2, 5; 6 hits. This leaves 11 power remaining. You lose 0.1 Essence and suffer pain and nausea for the day.

Day 4: the 11 remaining power is added to the base 8, for a total of 19. You roll: 6, 2, 5, 3, 1, 6, 3, 4, 5, 4, 2, 1; 4 hits. This leaves 15 power remaining. You lose 0.1 Essence and suffer pain and nausea for the day.

Day 5: Total power today is now up to 23. You roll: 2, 3, 3, 3, 3, 2, 4, 4, 3, 5, 2, 4; 1 hit. This leaves 22 power. You continue to suffer the full effects of the disease.

Day 6: Total power: 30. You roll: 2, 5, 2, 3, 2, 4, 2, 6, 3, 6, 1, 5; 4 hits. Remaining power: 26. Still suffering.

Day 7: Total power: 34. You roll: 6, 5, 1, 1, 1, 3, 6, 6, 1, 1, 1, 5; 5 hits and a glitch (ignoring the glitch as it's a GM call what that does). Remaining power: 29. Still suffering.

Day 8: Total power: 37. You roll: 6, 2, 4, 6, 2, 3, 4, 6, 4, 6, 3, 1; 4 hits. Remaining power: 33. More suffering.

Day 9: Total power: 41. You roll: 3, 6, 5, 6, 1, 6, 2, 5, 5, 1, 3, 6; 7 hits. Remaining power: 34. More suffering.

Day 10: Total Power: 42. You roll: 3, 3, 6, 6, 2, 2, 3, 2, 6, 3, 5, 5; 5 hits. Remaining power: 37. You've now lost a full point of Essence and turn into a ghoul.

And while there were a couple bad rolls there, the above results were above-average (total of 47 hits over the 10 days, where average would have been 40).

[Medicineman]

so ist almost Certain Death/Doom for the Chars ?!!
the Developer should (at Least) change the Virus to Injection Vector (I Think it was intended that way ,but somehow they didn't follow through)

Hokahey
Medicineman

[Stahlseele]

Basically, GM'S should just tell their players EXACTLY what the Change will do to their character. And show an example like the above to show them what will happen with the rolling and THEN ask:
"Do you want to roll if you turn into a ghoul?" If they do not want to roll:"Do you want to turn into a ghoul or not?" End of story.

[Cardul]

Basically, GM'S should just tell their players EXACTLY what the Change will do to their character. And show an example like the above to show them what will happen with the rolling and THEN ask:
"Do you want to roll if you turn into a ghoul?" If they do not want to roll:"Do you want to turn into a ghoul or not?" End of story.

Stahlseele? This is the BEST way to do it...I would still bust out a d10, and ignore 10s, and roll to see how many they "failed" (And I would tell them that they would lose Essence...they might not be becoming a ghoul, but they will not be getting off scot free, and they will be short money and such from the intensive, 10 day medical treatment)

But, honestly, a) the point of the game is to have fun and b) to tell a story... The people all worrying about "what do the rules say" seem to forget that, sometimes, the Story comes first..and, well, the table is a CO-OPERATIVE storytelling experience, not a COMPETITIVE experience...

[Grinder]

But, honestly, a) the point of the game is to have fun and b) to tell a story... The people all worrying about "what do the rules say" seem to forget that, sometimes, the Story comes first..and, well, the table is a CO-OPERATIVE storytelling experience, not a COMPETITIVE experience...

Next thing you tell us is to stop bitching and moaning over single lines in sourcebooks and small parts of adventures that we don't like? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

[Stahlseele]

Stahlseele? This is the BEST way to do it...I would still bust out a d10, and ignore 10s, and roll to see how many they "failed" (And I would tell them that they would lose Essence...they might not be becoming a ghoul, but they will not be getting off scot free, and they will be short money and such from the intensive, 10 day medical treatment)

But, honestly, a) the point of the game is to have fun and b) to tell a story... The people all worrying about "what do the rules say" seem to forget that, sometimes, the Story comes first..and, well, the table is a CO-OPERATIVE storytelling experience, not a COMPETITIVE experience...

Thank you for your kind words ^^

Next thing you tell us is to stop bitching and moaning over single lines in sourcebooks and small parts of adventures that we don't like? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

Nah, then this board would be as dull and boring and dead as most of the other shadowrun boards ^^

[GreyBrother]

Flames are a healthy part of cyberculture. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/proof.gif)

[Stahlseele]

Flames are a healthy part of cyberculture. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/proof.gif)

They weed out the weaksauce and allow the win to grow so lulz can be had.

[Fuchs]

Without people pointing out mistakes and errors we'll not have progress and better products.

[crizh]

Genetech augmentations of any sort are not
available to the Infected at all, as the retrovirus in their systems resists
and rewrites any other attempt to alter the character's genetic
code.

Hmmm, that certainly does imply that all ghouls remain infected.

It's wrong, and stupid, but I suppose you get used to that after a while.

Either those Born Infected can have Genetech Augmentations or the above quote is bulldrek. If you are genetically a Ghoul but are not infectious because you don't have the virus the above logic does not apply.

Hey, Patrick, which is it then?

Can Ghouls that don't have the virus, like those that are born Ghouls, get Genetech?

Or is the explanation for why Ghouls can't get Genetech rubbish?

[Cardul]

Hmmm, that certainly does imply that all ghouls remain infected.

It's wrong, and stupid, but I suppose you get used to that after a while.

Either those Born Infected can have Genetech Augmentations or the above quote is bulldrek. If you are genetically a Ghoul but are not infectious because you don't have the virus the above logic does not apply.

Hey, Patrick, which is it then?

Can Ghouls that don't have the virus, like those that are born Ghouls, get Genetech?

Or is the explanation for why Ghouls can't get Genetech rubbish?

It COULD be that: born Ghouls are Paras, and so, there are the usual issues with it. Can you give a Hellhound Geneware? Geneware is, as far as I know, specialized to work on humans/Metahumans, but other stuff(like our no-longer Human/Metahuman ghouls...) it just does not work on so well(if at all)

[crizh]

A better explanation would be that the altered cell structure of Ghouls and other infected actively resists genetic alterations or retro-viral infections which would also explain why you can only be altered by one strain of HMHVV.

[Grinder]

Without people pointing out mistakes and errors we'll not have progress and better products.

Agreed, of course. But some posters here do have their idea what "mistakes and errors" are and appear a suffering from nerd-rage over minor points from time to time. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Stahlseele]

Agreed, of course. But some posters here do have their idea what "mistakes and errors" are and appear a suffering from nerd-rage over minor points from time to time. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Speaking from experience there eh? ^^ *runs*

[Grinder]

Only on the reading side of it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Backgammon]

Some thoughts -

In a way, I can agree that it *should* be very difficult to resist Infection just by yourself. I mean, when you get like pneumonia or something serious, you don't just wait around for the disease to go away. You go see a doctor who gives you pills, and THAT helps you get better.

So just rolling Body probably shouldn't get you anywhere, unless you are very lucky of very resilienbt. However, with some help in the form of pills and stuff, you *should* be able to get over it.

The problem is that in SR there does not seem to be any treatment for Infection.

If I had to change anything about the Krieger virus (and I do), I would make the change be that characters can obtain meds to help fight the infection, adding many dice to you rolls. Still the element of risk, but in theory, if you get treatment, you should be ok.

[Patrick Goodman]

Hey, Patrick, which is it then?

Can Ghouls that don't have the virus, like those that are born Ghouls, get Genetech?

Or is the explanation for why Ghouls can't get Genetech rubbish?

I didn't write the rules, so I won't answer with any authority. For my money, though, those born ghouls could probably get genetech; they're effectively a new species, not an old one with a disease. Boy, watching this lack of common sense on the part of GMs everywhere on how to deal with bad rules makes me glad that I got shot down on a couple of things I had in the early drafts....

You don't like something? CHANGE IT. It's your game. Krieger Strain work better for you with an Injection vector? Boom, it's got an Injection vector (I know it does in my game). Or use the RAW and a modicum of common sense as to how much contact is enough. RAW is not God. "Official" is not a necessary imprimatur on anything. The moment that book fell into your sweaty little hands, it became your game, not Catalyst's. Expend your effort on worthwhile things, of which this is not one.

Should the vector be changed in errata? Yeah, probably, but I'm not going to lose sleep over it. If you really want it done, you should stop kvetching here and write a POLITELY WORDED email to the Shadowrun development team. They've got all sorts of contact info on the credits page of every book.

And look at how ranty I became without even trying. I knew there was a reason I didn't come in here that often....

[Stahlseele]

Isn't that even still one of the big unchangeable god like rules in the main book?
to change stuff you don't like? i think i remember that being written somewhere.