Ghouls: Do you tolerate them? Options

[Alexand]

It's generally called 'Rule Zero' or something like that.

It's also present in almost every single tabletop RPG I've ever read in the last 20 years. And I read a lot of RPGs (just for fun! I'm weird like that)

Edit: Congrats on 5000 posts & Great Dragon status

[Fuchs]

Boy, watching this lack of common sense on the part of GMs everywhere on how to deal with bad rules makes me glad that I got shot down on a couple of things I had in the early drafts....

If a rule is bad, why write it?

Please realize that we are more than capable to change the rules and setting - but that does not preclude us from voicing our opinion, in the hope things get better and errors get fixed. I'd consider it a lack of common sense to assume things will change for the better if no one complains.

Also, while inividual games cna easily be adapted, some play in other games, where people go with the official rules, and therefore it's of interest to them to make sure the official rules are good and working, and do not contradict the fluff.

[Machiavelli]

@Stahlseele: Baaaah....blasphemer. The book shalt not be changed or doubted, what stands in the book is true and unchangeable, if you refuse the golden rules, you shalt be damned until eternity. So the book says....^^

[Mäx]

Okay, we can do that.

Hypothetical scenario: Pachinko Mike is kicking ghoul ass in his Mitsuhama EE suit, whose full chemical seal protects him from infection as he plows through the critters with his handy assault rifle. After all is said and done, Mike pops off the hood to smoke a cigar. One of the ghouls has a bit of life left in him and tries to sneak up on Mike, but Mike catches the movement at the last minute and pops the cannibal in the head - sending blood and brains all over him, including in his mouth.

Uh-oh Mike. The GM decides you've been infected from your contact. Time to start rolling.

Twenty-four hours after his initial exposure, Mike feels like crap. Now, because he's a burly adept, he has Magic 6, an effective Body of 9, and defensive systems Natural Immunity 6 (adept power) and Pathogenic Defense 6 (implant). HMHVV-III has a Power of 8 and Penetration -6. The Penetration reduces the bonus dice from his protective systems, so he only receives (6 + 6 - 6) 6 dice from his Natural Immunity and Pathogenic Defense. Rolling his (9 + 6) 15 dice, he rolls well and scores 7 hits - enough to reduce the Power to 1, but not to eliminate it entirely, so he suffers the effects of the disease: Pain, Nausea, and 0.1 Essence loss, which brings Mike's Essence down to 5.2.

In his second day of infection, the remaining power from the previous day (Power 1) is added to the Power of the disease, so the effective power of the disease is (8 + 1) 9. Again rolling his (9 + 6) 15 dice, Mike is again lucky as hell and rolls seven successes, reducing the Power to 2 - but again, that's not enough to eliminate it entirely, so he suffers the effects of the disease: Pain, Nausea, and 0.1 Essence loss, which brings Mike's Essence down to 5.1.

Coming on the third day of infection, Mike goes to see a shaman friend of his, who correctly diagnoses the disease and casts a Cure Disease spell. The magician takes a penalty for the Essence loss Mike has already suffered from implants and disease (-1 modifier to the spellcasting test), but she gets 5 net hits, which Mike can add to his test. The Power of the disease is now (8 + 2) 10, and Mike rolls (9 + 6 + 5) 20 dice, but only scores 6 hits, reducing its Power to 4, and he again suffers the effects of the disease: Pain, Nausea, and 0.1 Essence loss, which brings Mike's Essence down to 5.0.

Getting worried, Mike dips into his savings and buys three doses of Rock Lizard Blood from his shaman friend, a magical compound with a duration of (Essence + 6) hours that offers Immunity to Disease, which grants him (Magic x 2) extra dice on his test for today; for good measure he has the shaman cast Cure Disease on him again, this time getting 4 net hits. So when it's time for him to make his fourth test, the disease has a Power of (8 + 4) 12 and Mike is rolling (9 + 6 + 4 + 12) 31 dice. Mike gets 13 successes, reducing the Power to 0 for that test, and has twenty-four hours of relief from the effects of the virus - but it's still in his system.

On the fifth day, with no more Rock Lizard Blood, Mike again shells out for a Cure Disease spell, which this time renders 6 net hits. The Power of the disease is reset at 8, and Mike is rolling (9 + 6 + 6) 21 dice, but he doesn't roll any successes and suffers the full effects of the disease: Pain, Nausea, and 0.1 Essence loss - which drops his Essence to 4.9, and worse causes him to lose a point of Magic and a point of adept powers - in this case, 4 ranks of Natural Immunity! Things aren't looking good for Mike.

Day six after infection, Mike is desperately looking for a solution, but not coming up with much luck. The Power of the disease is (8 + (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) 16, and Mike can't hope to beat it, so he burns a point of Edge to pass the test and buy himself a little breathing space.

Day seven after infection, Mike has called in some favors, and now his shaman friend and her friends have gathered around to ritual-cast a Cure Disease spell on him, which comes up with a whopping 12 net hits. The Power of the disease is 8, and he rolls (9 + 2 + 12) 23 dice, just getting 7 hits and reducing the Power to 1. He suffers the usual round of Pain, Nausea, and Essence loss - his Essence is now at 4.8, and he's lost 0.5 Essence to the disease.

Day eight, Mike gets a call from a street doc who hooks him up with a Nephritic screen (rating 4) on short notice. Although it costs 0.4 Essence (bringing him down to 4.4), it offers 4 additional dice to protecting against the disease. The Power of the disease is (8 + 1) 9, and Mike rolls (9 + 6) 15 dice, scoring 6 successes. More Pain, more Nausea, more Essence loss - he's now at 4.3, and he's lost 0.6 Essence to the disease.

At the start of the ninth day, Mike's street docs starts him on a treatment of o-cells (rating 3). O-cells reduce the Power of the virus, which today has a Power of (8 + 3 - 3) 8. Mike rolls (9 + 6) 15 dice, scoring 5 successes. The familiar drill of Pain, Nausea, and Essence loss - he's now at 4.2, and he's lost 0.7 Essence to the disease.

Day ten, the street doc and shaman get together to try and drive this thing from Mike's system with O-cells (rating 3) and a Cure Disease spell (5 net hits). The Power of the disease is (8 + 3 - 3) 8, and Mike is rolling (9 + 6 + 5) 20 dice; he scores seven hits. His two friends can only look on as Mike suffers more Pain, more Nausea, and Essence loss - he's now at 4.1, and he's lost 0.8 Essence to the disease.

That said, it's not all bad news for Mike. The initial period of the disease is over, he's now made the ten required tests, and the Power of the disease will no longer accumulate.

Day eleven, the street doc administers another round of O-cells (rating 3), and the shaman tries another Cure Disease spell (8 net hits - yay overcasting). The Power of the disease is (8 - 3) 5, and Mike is rolling (9 + 6 + (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) 23 dice. Mike's GM lets the long-suffering player trade 4 dice in for a hit, and Mike easily gets more hits than he needs to reduce the disease's Power to zero. To everyone's relief, Mike sleeps quietly without the need for pain killers or anti-nausea drugs, and blood tests show the virus is gone from his system.

Of course, for his trouble Mike has lost 0.8 Essence to the disease. If he suffers another 0.2 Essence loss to HMHVV-III again, he's going to become a ghoul.

Now if he had just gone to the street doc immideatly and gotten something like O-cells 6, he probaply wouldn't have failed a single test and would have spend a lot less money.

If you fear that your gonna face ghouls and get infected, just make a hapid of carrying a couple of vialls of rating 6-8 O-cells with you and inject them to your system bewore the first test.

[crizh]

Now if he had just gone to the street doc immideatly and gotten something like O-cells 6, he probaply wouldn't have failed a single test and would have spend a lot less money.

If you fear that your gonna face ghouls and get infected, just make a hapid of carrying a couple of vialls of rating 6-8 O-cells with you and inject them to your system bewore the first test.

QFT

[Machiavelli]

QFT

[JTNLANGE]

Now if he had just gone to the street doc immideatly and gotten something like O-cells 6, he probaply wouldn't have failed a single test and would have spend a lot less money.

If you fear that your gonna face ghouls and get infected, just make a hapid of carrying a couple of vialls of rating 6-8 O-cells with you and inject them to your system bewore the first test.

If Woody had gone straight to the police this never would have happened. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

I think the end result of all this is "Hey CGL we think this is broken can you fix it, and I am going to make a change at my table."

sounds resonable to me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Trevor L.

[Fuchs]

That's no trivial cost though, which would make dealing with ghouls, or ghoul-infested areas, very costly.

[Zormal]

That's no trivial cost though, which would make dealing with ghouls, or ghoul-infested areas, very costly.

True. Though with a nanohive, it's a one-time investment.

An 'unintended' side-effect is that you'll most probably never get sick again with anything.

[hobgoblin]

It's generally called 'Rule Zero' or something like that.

It's also present in almost every single tabletop RPG I've ever read in the last 20 years. And I read a lot of RPGs (just for fun! I'm weird like that)

Sadly, its being pissed on as a cop out by the "we are more indy then you are" crowd of game designers, and the meme is apparently even more infectious then the ghoul virus...

[Stahlseele]

It's generally called 'Rule Zero' or something like that.

It's also present in almost every single tabletop RPG I've ever read in the last 20 years. And I read a lot of RPGs (just for fun! I'm weird like that)

Edit: Congrats on 5000 posts & Great Dragon status

Thank you for clearing that up ^^

[Critias]

Boy, watching this lack of common sense on the part of GMs everywhere on how to deal with bad rules makes me glad that I got shot down on a couple of things I had in the early drafts....

Boy, watching this lack of concern on the part of the game's developers on how to come up with good rules makes me glad blah blah blah blah.

See how easy snarky one-liners are? And you don't think it's a little worrisome at all that someone who will, in one post, stamp his foot and thump his chest about having "written the fucking thing," will in another post rant at a forum full of players because they're not quick enough to toss the rulebooks out the window?

We know we can house rule stuff all we want. But to have someone -- someone who wrote, himself, part of what we're complaining about right now -- come in and rub our noses in the fact we need to house rule it, is a little ridiculous. Maybe instead of encouraging us to house rule stuff and acting like we're bad GMs if we don't, the rules should just not suck the first time around.

[Prime Mover]

After reading the preceding posts I feel that it's in all of our best interests if we all vote yes on prop 1711 offering free sterilization to low income orks and disposesed infected. For their own sake and the safety of your community and our children.

Bill sponsered by the Humanis Policlub.

[Jhaiisiin]

Guys might wanna cool it down before we start seeing colored text warning us again.

[hobgoblin]

colored text is the spice of dumpshock life (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Jhaiisiin]

Well I can't really argue that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Warlordtheft]

Yeah, this is vastly degenerating into the age old argument that it is ok for a GM to adjust the rules or show some discretion when implement a rule from to those that wish the GM to adhere strictly to RAW.

IMHO-It is the gm's game. Let him do whatever he feels is right. Ingection for HumveeIII (sorry couldn't resist, every time I see HMMV-I think Humvee (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) ) that is ok. Anyway contact could mean alot ofthings. Also, not all ghouls are carriers (GM discretion as to how prevelant those are 1in 10 or 1 in 100 or more?). This would affect the transmission rate, and the CDC (noticing a slight uptick in cases) would probably outsource the problem to an ares firewatch team.

Oh-snap. This is completely OT-but hummer was going to be bought by a chinese company. I think they declined. In anyrate China had alot of the US debt. When the US imploded, china implodes as well. Which makes perfect sense as to why the commies lost their grip on power.


Sorry-my mind made too many associations at once. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotate.gif)

[Ancient History]

That's a direct quote from Ancient History.

Uh, wait what? The only part of that you quoted from me was "your little world" and that's because you already stated you're basically ignoring everything about ghouls past the 2nd edition core book.

[JTNLANGE]

After reading the preceding posts I feel that it's in all of our best interests if we all vote yes on prop 1711 offering free sterilization to low income orks and disposesed infected. For their own sake and the safety of your community and our children.

Bill sponsered by the Humanis Policlub.

My name is Kenneth Brackhaven and I approve this message

[Fuchs]

Uh, wait what? The only part of that you quoted from me was "your little world" and that's because you already stated you're basically ignoring everything about ghouls past the 2nd edition core book.

You mean this:

Good thing I retconned the whole ghouls stuff long ago. The infection can be cured before the transformation occurs, and ghouls are monsters, KOS in most civilized countries. No one argues for granting them any rights.

Seeing as ghouls have been presented as actual people rather than just Karma-on-the-hoof since second edition, Fuchs, I'm glad you're happy playing in your own little world.

I don't really see where I'd have misrepesented you - you are glad ghouls are not KOS anymore.

[otakusensei]

I don't really see where I'd have misrepesented you - you are glad ghouls are not KOS anymore.

A direct quote and a representation are a bit different. We could houserule it, but I'd suggest against it.

[Ancient History]

I don't really see where I'd have misrepesented you - you are glad ghouls are not KOS anymore.

Learn to read. I was pointing out that ghouls have been presented as more than just bullet-fodder for a long time.

[Fuchs]

Uh. What exactly do you mean? Wendigos have been portrayed as more than bullet fodder in the very first novel trilogy, yet anyone shoots them on sight since that's the rational thing to do. What exactly is your point?

[hobgoblin]

individual humans, mostly rational. society as a whole, anything but...

[Patrick Goodman]

If a rule is bad, why write it?

Man, you got me cold. I guess I better just spill it: We really do sit down and deliberately write shit just to piss off the likes of you.

It gets written because it looks right at the time. Then a dozen people get hold of it (depending on the book, the number varies) and discuss it. Developers change things. Then it gets [;aytsted and discussed some more. It's not generally bad by the time it hits press.

The thing is, a lot of use cpmmpn sense when dealing with the rules. RAW is not God, as you seem to be treating it.

Please realize that we are more than capable to change the rules and setting

Then just DO IT, for crying out loud!!! It is not the duty of the writers and developers to cover every single possible contingency and hold your hands. In theory, you've got a brain. Use the damn thing, You say you're capable, but you're not showing it.

- but that does not preclude us from voicing our opinion, in the hope things get better and errors get fixed. I'd consider it a lack of common sense to assume things will change for the better if no one complains.

Then complain, in a politely worded communique of your choice, to the dev team and not here. All you do by posting here is bitch and moan in public.

Also, while inividual games cna easily be adapted, some play in other games, where people go with the official rules, and therefore it's of interest to them to make sure the official rules are good and working, and do not contradict the fluff.

Once again, use the common sense God gave a bowling ball. It has not been readily demonstrated here that someone's tried this approach just yet.