Ghouls: Do you tolerate them? Options

[Ancient History]

My point is you're an annoying little hater who has already made the changes to suit themselves in their own game and now decides that the best use of their time is to piss on everyone else's game by constant, repetitive, incessant, and overblown bitching. Whatever valid points you have about the changes to the rules in SR4 have long been overshadowed by your whiny, obstinate, and generally belligerent posting. What do you possibly think is going to happen - CGL is going to pull back all copies of the PDF and change one word for your convenience? There might, at some future date be errata, yes. Those who have worked with the company have said is much. Why do you persist in going on and fucking on about it?

[Jhaiisiin]

Hey Patrick? This is OUR way of coming together and hashing out possible rules quirks. You use a dozen people consisting of devs and freelancers to look a rule over and hash it out. Dumpshock uses potentially hundreds, and that's not including people who only lurk here for information.

Seriously, this is part of why Dumpshock exists. Attacking us on that idea isn't exactly good form.

Simply put, a single person emailing a dev is no where near as effective as a whole community attacking a possible rule issue and coming up with one or more possible interpretations and solutions. If it was, Cain would have gotten all kinds of crap changed long ago.

[hobgoblin]

hey, AH, by now you should know that this is exactly why RPG players frequent forums (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Ancient History]

Don't get me wrong: it is a player's Ghost-given right to bitch, moan, kvetch, and tear the shit out of rules and fluff. It really is. It's dwelling on the subject after your point has been made that irks me, it's hitting a horse with your car and then getting out, shooting it in the head to put it out of its misery, an then punching it repeatedly when you see what it did to your vehicle. Point made, let's move on.

[Adarael]

Once again, use the common sense God gave a bowling ball. It has not been readily demonstrated here that someone's tried this approach just yet.

Oh, I'm sure a bunch of us have, but if we do that, then there's really no reason to post in this thread than to say, "Oh, that rule is wacky, let's not use that."

[CodeBreaker]

Indeed. And anyway, there are much more important subjects in Running Wild to discuss. A travesty has occured, and it must be fixed immediatly.

You got the Latin name for the Common Armadillo wrong! CodeBreaker demands reperations be made!

[Cheops]

Then stop making belligerent posts back at him.

[Fuchs]

No one forces you to read anything, AH and Patrick. But if you post, please don't stoop to insults. We're discussing a rules/fluff issue here. Simply saying "hey, house rule it, but shut up" is pretty short-sighted - you get feedback here, often very well founded, and mathematically sound. Blowing it off doesn't really look professional.

It's also worth to consider that acknowledging errors without getting all up in arms about it does a lot to keep discussions civil.

[hobgoblin]

how about this, maybe its not a error, maybe its foreshadowing some future event in the metaplot?

keep in mind tho, neither AH nor patrick are in the full know. they are told to write a piece on some subject, hand the result of to the developers, get feedback on changes needed, and thats it. they are not told the full why the developers want it the way they want, except maybe something in the ballpark of "rising mana level"...

[Adam]

I have been summoned to say "Hey people, please knock off the personal attacks. Step away from your computer. Shadowrun is -- believe me -- not important enough to hate someone over. Ask your doctor about your blood pressure."

Simply put, a single person emailing a dev is no where near as effective as a whole community attacking a possible rule issue and coming up with one or more possible interpretations and solutions.

However, I must laugh a little at the idea of the "whole community" actually agreeing on anything. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Adarael]

What if the question was "Do Doc Funkenstein and Frank Trollman often loudly voice their opinions?" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[hobgoblin]

i think frank is no longer part of the freelancer pool, so...

[Adarael]

Oh, that's true, I meant "in general, on Dumpshock" - not specifically as a freelancer.

[Fuchs]

how about this, maybe its not a error, maybe its foreshadowing some future event in the metaplot?

keep in mind tho, neither AH nor patrick are in the full know. they are told to write a piece on some subject, hand the result of to the developers, get feedback on changes needed, and thats it. they are not told the full why the developers want it the way they want, except maybe something in the ballpark of "rising mana level"...

Well, I do not think Shadowrun needs to copy resident evil and turn the world into a zombie (sorr: Ghoul) wasteland. People who do want such a game can already simply use the RAW rules, and apply them to a city/country of their choice.

[Fuchs]

(double post)

[Adam]

What if the question was "Do Doc Funkenstein and Frank Trollman often loudly voice their opinions?" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Nearly choked on my sandwich. Good play, Adarael, good play.

[Muspellsheimr]

Also, while inividual games cna easily be adapted, some play in other games, where people go with the official rules, and therefore it's of interest to them to make sure the official rules are good and working, and do not contradict the fluff.

Excellent point.

We know we can house rule stuff all we want. But to have someone -- someone who wrote, himself, part of what we're complaining about right now -- come in and rub our noses in the fact we need to house rule it, is a little ridiculous. Maybe instead of encouraging us to house rule stuff and acting like we're bad GMs if we don't, the rules should just not suck the first time around.

Basically my position.

Then just DO IT, for crying out loud!!! It is not the duty of the writers and developers to cover every single possible contingency and hold your hands. In theory, you've got a brain. Use the damn thing, You say you're capable, but you're not showing it.

House ruling to fit a particular play style is acceptable.
House ruling because the rules are fucking broken is not.

Fix the goddamn rules, so house rules are not necessary, but rather for adjusting flavor.

If it was, Cain would have gotten all kinds of crap changed long ago.

QFTW

Damn good thing a single email is not enough - only rarely does Cain have a good point.

[Stahlseele]

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=26019

[Critias]

The thing is, a lot of use cpmmpn sense when dealing with the rules.

Many of us do, but it would be nice if more effort was put into using common sense when writing those rules, so that we wouldn't have to. To admit rules are bad and act like that's the customer's fault and not the producer's isn't exactly stellar professionalism.

RAW is not God, as you seem to be treating it.

No, but the RAW are what we spend our money on, and it's nice when they make sense so that we can feel we're purchasing a high quality product. Most of the time -- obviously, or we wouldn't be here -- most of us do like what we buy, or we wouldn't buy it. Likewise, most of us are plenty capable of house-ruling when we feel it's needed...

...but that's a band-aid, and we shouldn't have to do that. Nor should we be insulted into doing so by those who write these products. If anything, it seems as through unhappy customers should be insisting you guys "use the common sense God gave a bowling ball" when writing in the first place, not the other way around.

If, after all, a bowling ball's worth of common sense is the measuring stick by which we'll decide this sort of thing. If that amount of common sense is what's required to house rule something, that must mean -- looking at it mathematically -- that that amount of common sense was lacking when the RAW was typed up, right?

Who berates a paying customer for their own mistake, and expects those customers to remain happy and cheerful about it while taking it upon themselves to fix that employee's problem? Seriously? Is this customer service you would smile about at a fucking Taco Bell?

"Yeah, I know you ordered a burrito and not a soft taco, but oh well, it was the dude in back that screwed up not me up here at the register. What the wrapper and the receipt call something isn't what's important, it's all about how you eat it. You've got thumbs, use them! Roll the soft taco up like it's a burrito, for God's sake, and eat it that way. Jeeze, do I have to do everything for you?!"

[Jhaiisiin]

However, I must laugh a little at the idea of the "whole community" actually agreeing on anything. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I do as well. But sometimes we do reach a general consensus. The HMHVV Krieger strain contact vector being too much is only the most recent example. Once in awhile, we do come together with a vast majority on a single issue. I'll grant that it's fairly rare, given the wide range of personalities, opinions and play styles that Dumpshock represents, but it does happen. At the least, we as a community do manage to cough up workable house rules and fixes on our own. Hell, often we end up with 3+ solutions to the same issue, because people see it differently. *shrug*

[BishopMcQ]

Critias--I can't speak for all of the freelancers, but there is generally a lot of discussion. Yes, sometimes mistakes happen. Personally, I feel that the virulence and mechanics for HMHVV is accurate, though I would personally change the wording of Contact to specify that it takes either prolonged physical contact or fluid exchange--have sex, make out, catch a splash of blood, all contagious. Shake hands, not effective except in the rarest of circumstances.

That said, we all make mistakes. Yes, it happened. I know that I try to minimize the number of mistakes that are made, and then correct them when brought to my attention. An example of this would be the exchange between Stormdrake and I about Swarms and Mischiefs in the Running Wild thread. I thought it was all perfectly clear, and when others read it they didn't have any questions. Stormdrake did though, and his perspective as a non-freelancer and someone who hasn't read through the three previous versions to come up with the best way to say something, is valuable.

Watching the fans react on Dumpshock had a mixed value to me, I was curious to see how you would review my work and worried about explosions of vitriol that may come out of it. Too often, I think, people forget that the authors are here and we say things on forums that we would never say face to face. Also, because of the electronic format, all of the body language and tone cues that we would take away from the discussion are missing, making communication harder--the reader is more prone to ascribing emotional context which may not have been the writer's intent.

Just food for thought...

Back on the subject at hand--Besides changing the numbers of the disease (I've seen a few options bantered around) would people agree that clarification on the Contact Vector could also be useful? I know that "Common Sense" is a touchy subject at the moment, but where do you think we can draw the line for a safe contact and a possibly contagious one?

[CodeBreaker]

Back on the subject at hand--Besides changing the numbers of the disease (I've seen a few options bantered around) would people agree that clarification on the Contact Vector could also be useful? I know that "Common Sense" is a touchy subject at the moment, but where do you think we can draw the line for a safe contact and a possibly contagious one?

I think that a clarification is much needed. I personally am going to be ruling it so that it is closer to AIDs virulence than straight up contact. Bodily Fluid transfer, including sweat. So don't go licking your local Ghoul, wear gloves and don't have sexy time with one either.

[hobgoblin]

though I would personally change the wording of Contact to specify that it takes either prolonged physical contact or fluid exchange--have sex, make out, catch a splash of blood, all contagious. Shake hands, not effective except in the rarest of circumstances.

if so, those gas based weapon toxins becomes somewhat odd...

i guess thats the problem of using the same system for toxins and diseases...

[Fuchs]

Back on the subject at hand--Besides changing the numbers of the disease (I've seen a few options bantered around) would people agree that clarification on the Contact Vector could also be useful? I know that "Common Sense" is a touchy subject at the moment, but where do you think we can draw the line for a safe contact and a possibly contagious one?

As was pointed out to me on another forum by Frank Trollman there's also the effect of the "unresisted disease power adds to the next test" rules when coupled with the agony and nausea rules in Augmentation:

Agony: The character is wracked with excruciating pain that is
difficult to describe. For every unresisted point of the disease’s
Power, the character suffers a –1 wound modifier (as if she had
suffered 3 boxes of damage). If the unresisted Power of the
disease exceeds the character’s Willpower, she cannot speak
coherently or move at more than a slow crawl

Nausea: If the current unresisted Power of the disease exceeds
the target’s Willpower, she is incapacitated for 3 Combat Turns
out of every 6 Combat Turns (she is incapacitated half the
time). So long as there is one unresisted Power of the disease,
the character suffers double wound modifiers.

The Disease Resistance Test
The victim makes a resistance test using Body + the rating of
any protective systems, implants, or medicines. Every hit reduces
the disease’s Power by 1 point. If the Power is reduced to zero, the
disease takes no effect; otherwise apply relevant effects depending
on the remaining Power rating.
If the pathogen’s Power is not reduced to zero, it is added to
the pathogen’s Power when rolling the next subsequent Disease
Resistance Test. This accumulation continues only for a number
of resistance tests as listed in parentheses after the Speed in the
pathogen description. After the minimum number of tests have
been made, the infection has peaked, and Power will no longer accumulate.
The effects of the disease will continue until subsequent
resistance tests finally reduce its Power to zero.
The application of pharmaceuticals (p. 134) may assist in
resisting diseases.

How long would a normal human - meaning, those who end up ghouls - be nauseated and in agony after the transformation?

Assume they have body 3, and so get one success per test, meaning 7 left per day and added to the next day test, stopping after 10 days at 70 - but having to be reduced by daily tests, meaning by 1 per day, meaning 70 days after becoming a ghoul spent in agony and nausea, unable to do anything with those modifiers (-70, for example).

Numbers seem to be borked anyway, even if you change the vector to injection.

[Jhaiisiin]

Clarification regarding the contact vector *in relation to HMHVV* would be awesome. That would settle so much here. Either people would need to definitively house rule it, or accept it as fine, and there would be no more debate on it.