Ghouls: Do you tolerate them? Options

[hobgoblin]

As was pointed out to me on another forum by Frank Trollman

oh joy...

[KCKitsune]

Back on the subject at hand--Besides changing the numbers of the disease (I've seen a few options bantered around) would people agree that clarification on the Contact Vector could also be useful? I know that "Common Sense" is a touchy subject at the moment, but where do you think we can draw the line for a safe contact and a possibly contagious one?

Make "Contact" the same as a venereal disease (blood, sexual fluids, etc), just shaking hands with a Ghoul* should not be enough to get the disease.

* == who would want to shake the hand of something that is looking at you like you're a big mac? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif)

[BishopMcQ]

Hobgoblin--Most gas based weapons are inhalation by my recollection, and I would presume that Contact vector gases generally target mucus membranes. (Tear Gas for example)

Any thoughts on how to make it work for both?

[CodeBreaker]

Hobgoblin--Most gas based weapons are inhalation by my recollection, and I would presume that Contact vector gases generally target mucus membranes. (Tear Gas for example)

Any thoughts on how to make it work for both?

How about have Strain 3's contact vector be "Other" and have a more specific bit on it?

[Heath Robinson]

I might as well ask here, to save a new thread (in this economic crisis we have to budget our thread consumption, after all). Is there any point in HMHVV II having more than one test except to deliberately catch anyone who had enough dice or protective systems to get 13 hits on the first test?

[Critias]

Too often, I think, people forget that the authors are here and we say things on forums that we would never say face to face.

I know what it's like to put your work out there for public consumption. While not Shadowrun (for whatever reason) yet, I've written for about a half dozen other games, myself, as a freelancer. I know mistakes happen. I know how compartmentalized the freelance structure can be (almost like terrorist cells, I swear, the way one small group has no idea who is in another small group, and no one knows what anyone else is working on)...that's not my issue. My issue isn't even with someone who works on a game suggesting folks house rule it if there's something they don't like.

My issue is -- and yeah, screw it, I'll be point blank -- how Mr. Goodman was suggesting it. You talk about the rest of Dumpshock talking like we wouldn't face to face? Go re-read Patrick's posts. As someone who puts himself out there as a freelancer, and as such (even in a limited capacity) a "public face" of this game, it seems to me like he'd be better served toning it down about eight notches.

It's bad enough when anyone hops into a thread and insists everyone else isn't using common sense, tells them to use the brains God gave a bowling ball, calls them a bunch of bitchers and moaners, stating that we've in theory got brains, and pointing out that it's not the job of the devs to "hold our hands" (by making a product that's of high enough quality we wouldn't need house rules).

But when it's someone partially responsible for the screw-up we're all talking about, it's just a slap in the fucking face. It comes off as "Yeah, we screwed up. But so what? Fix it yourself, stupid!"

[The Jake]

Make "Contact" the same as a venereal disease (blood, sexual fluids, etc), just shaking hands with a Ghoul* should not be enough to get the disease.

* == who would want to shake the hand of something that is looking at you like you're a big mac? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif)

That would be the way I house rule it. Still technically contact based but with some sanity around it.

- J.

[IceKatze]

hi hi

I'm cool with Ghouls being treated as normal people in society, I'm cool with them being ultra-contagious horrors, but not at the same time. The moment my GM says the word "Ghoul" my response will be: "have you read the rules for infection and what is your take on it?" Depending on what the GM says, I'll either pull out my assault rifle and spend edge on a narrow full burst, or engage in conversation.

Even if you restrict contact to mean contact with fluids, how long do those fluids remain infectious after leaving the body? Seconds, minutes, days?

[hobgoblin]

Hobgoblin--Most gas based weapons are inhalation by my recollection, and I would presume that Contact vector gases generally target mucus membranes. (Tear Gas for example)

Any thoughts on how to make it work for both?

SR4:
CS/tear gas
neuro-stun
pepper punch
seven-7

arsenal:
ekyelebenle venom
ke vi
ringu
warp
white star
ymir

augmentation:
hsv-5
aura deficiency syndrome
mana-active aura deficiency syndrome

i suspect the real problem is that contact is specified in SR4 as short skin contact, rather then something like "see specific toxin for minimum conditions for infection".

[crizh]

The sort of 'contact' vector you are talking about here is commonly known as the 'injection' vector.

You can contract HIV from contact but only if you have unrelated 'injuries' that permit the virus to enter your bloodstream. Which is effectively the same as injection.

I definitely think that injection would be the vector to change HMHVV-III to rather than watering down contact.

The real problem other than the ease of infection is it's virulence.

The mechanics are poorly understood. Anything with a power over 4 is massively deadly, the average human without access to medicine can't survive a disease with a power of 2!

Penetration should be all you need to deal with pharmaceutical resistance. MRSA might have a power of 2 and a penetration of -4. Something with a penetration of -6 is already effectively immune to medical intervention.

Fluff indicates that it is possible for a human to fight off HMHVV-III which means it cannot have a power greater than 6.

I would suggest changing it to injection, reducing the power to 6 and the penetration to -4 and removing the text that disallows anti-virals.

The best your average human could hope to achieve is about 10 dice to resist which makes the chances of survival vanishingly small. Even with Cure Disease and medical attention you might as well just flip a coin and you can probably kiss 0.3 Essence goodbye.

[toturi]

Back on the subject at hand--Besides changing the numbers of the disease (I've seen a few options bantered around) would people agree that clarification on the Contact Vector could also be useful? I know that "Common Sense" is a touchy subject at the moment, but where do you think we can draw the line for a safe contact and a possibly contagious one?

My answer is that any line that is drawn for the Contact vector would and should apply equally to all toxins/diseases/nano-weapons, unless specific and explicit exclusions are written in.

[Cardul]

I know what it's like to put your work out there for public consumption. While not Shadowrun (for whatever reason) yet, I've written for about a half dozen other games, myself, as a freelancer. I know mistakes happen. I know how compartmentalized the freelance structure can be (almost like terrorist cells, I swear, the way one small group has no idea who is in another small group, and no one knows what anyone else is working on)...that's not my issue. My issue isn't even with someone who works on a game suggesting folks house rule it if there's something they don't like.

My issue is -- and yeah, screw it, I'll be point blank -- how Mr. Goodman was suggesting it. You talk about the rest of Dumpshock talking like we wouldn't face to face? Go re-read Patrick's posts. As someone who puts himself out there as a freelancer, and as such (even in a limited capacity) a "public face" of this game, it seems to me like he'd be better served toning it down about eight notches.

It's bad enough when anyone hops into a thread and insists everyone else isn't using common sense, tells them to use the brains God gave a bowling ball, calls them a bunch of bitchers and moaners, stating that we've in theory got brains, and pointing out that it's not the job of the devs to "hold our hands" (by making a product that's of high enough quality we wouldn't need house rules).

But when it's someone partially responsible for the screw-up we're all talking about, it's just a slap in the fucking face. It comes off as "Yeah, we screwed up. But so what? Fix it yourself, stupid!"

I think this is why Shadowrun does not have a true, official Forum. You will also note that Dumpshock is no-longer listed in the SR4A book.
If Shadowrun had an official forum, like BAttletech does, there would be something distinguishing Writers from regular joes, and, well
Battletech supposedly HAS fired a Free-lancer due to his/her posts on the boards. So, the Shdowrun team protects their Freelancers
by not having an Official Forum. In fact, we only have Mr. Goodmans word that he wrote anything, and that he is indeed who he
claims to be.

On one hand, I do partially agree that "Common Sense" is not being used..I mean, "contact" vector is contact with the disease, not contact with the
infected, and it is the GM's discretion what counts as Contact with the Disease. Personally, I, as a GM, would say that you are not coming in contact
with the disease without injury. Do Ghouls ahve the Infection Power? No..so they are not going to infect people just by touching them. There has
to be something MORE to it. From this application of "Common Sense", one can conclude that we turn to the fluff for when contact occurs..which is
when you are bit or scratched by a ghoul, or touched IF YOU HAVE OPEN WOUNDS. However, what is "Common Sense" for me, might not be for you.
I mean, for me, "Common Sense" is that when a door says "automatic door," you wait for it to open before going through it, or if it does not,
you read the sign on it, and follow the instructions there. That, unfortunately, is not Common Sense for 90% of Americans(conclusion based
on observation working at a hotel at night). So, Common Sense is a subjective term, and not an absolute. I am quite sure that Mr. Goodman has
broken his nose running into the locked for security automatic hotel doors, because his attack on the Dumpshockers certainly does NOT show
common sense to me.

[Patrick Goodman]

My issue is -- and yeah, screw it, I'll be point blank -- how Mr. Goodman was suggesting it. You talk about the rest of Dumpshock talking like we wouldn't face to face? Go re-read Patrick's posts. As someone who puts himself out there as a freelancer, and as such (even in a limited capacity) a "public face" of this game, it seems to me like he'd be better served toning it down about eight notches.

And you're absolutely correct. I was way the hell out of line, and I apologize to all involved. The life outside of this shiny little box left me a little more raw (no pun intended) than I at first realized. I let things get to me that I shouldn't have.

So to all I've offended: I'm sorry. Won't happen again.

[Patrick Goodman]

In fact, we only have Mr. Goodmans word that he wrote anything, and that he is indeed who he claims to be.

Well, my name IS in the credits, and I can provide witnesses and references as to my bona fides.

[CodeBreaker]

For all we know Tiger Eyes is actually a very sneaky hacker with access to some real devs timetables and such. Conspirasah Theory Tiem!

[Ancient History]

We are ten thousand monkeys.

[HappyDaze]

IIRC, Drakes are immune to HMHVV, right? Would Latent Dracomorphosis (a mere 5 BP Quality) also proide this protection?

[Patrick Goodman]

IIRC, Drakes are immune to HMHVV, right? Would Latent Dracomorphosis (a mere 5 BP Quality) also proide this protection?

Again, I didn't write the rules, but from where I'm sitting: Yeah. It provides a whole other source of major problems all its own, but you won't be turning into a vampire, so exactly that much is right with the world.

[toturi]

We are ten thousand monkeys.

Ten thousand immortal elven monkeys, you mean. Did you fight in the shade too?

[Cthulhudreams]

No one forces you to read anything, AH and Patrick. But if you post, please don't stoop to insults. We're discussing a rules/fluff issue here. Simply saying "hey, house rule it, but shut up" is pretty short-sighted - you get feedback here, often very well founded, and mathematically sound. Blowing it off doesn't really look professional.

It's also worth to consider that acknowledging errors without getting all up in arms about it does a lot to keep discussions civil.

The hilarious thing is that I got slammed in the Adventure review thread for suggesting that the deiease was much more lethal than thought, and thus no-one dying seemed unlikely. haha.

[BishopMcQ]

My issue is -- and yeah, screw it, I'll be point blank -- how Mr. Goodman was suggesting it. You talk about the rest of Dumpshock talking like we wouldn't face to face? Go re-read Patrick's posts. As someone who puts himself out there as a freelancer, and as such (even in a limited capacity) a "public face" of this game, it seems to me like he'd be better served toning it down about eight notches.

The comments I made about posting on the forums are for all parties involved. (I know I've done it myself a few times.) They weren't meant to excuse any one party's actions. The entire argument was a mess. For my part, I'm trying to get us back on track and found an answer. I saw that Patrick came back in, and I think the last few days have just been a little rough on the nerves.

My answer is that any line that is drawn for the Contact vector would and should apply equally to all toxins/diseases/nano-weapons, unless specific and explicit exclusions are written in.

I would agree. Personally, I hate making Ruling X with Exceptions 1,2,3,4,etc..., so I would want the Contact Vector application to work for everything. I'm not a Dev, but I am interested in finding a solution.

Cthulhu--Yes, it is deadly. I will admit that I didn't put the fight in my playtest notes regarding the survival chances of HMHVV--maybe if I had, things would have been different.

CODE

Contact Vector--Contact is determined by a fluid transfer (Blood, sweat, etc.) mostly commonly from prolonged physical contact or proximity with an individual. Contact can also happen in cases where fluid meets an open wound or mucus membrane, such as in melee combat.

Starting from here, how would people like this changed, or corrected?

[Fuchs]

I once again point out that there is more than the vector. Please check the disease rules in augmentation, and see how long ghoul victims would be left unable to move or act from agony and nausea - about 70 days on average.

[rathmun]

Reading through the rules for the infected, I realized that, technically, essence loss from HMHVV III (or any other strain) does not cause magic loss, unless it lowers your maximum magic below your current magic. After all, if you've caught the disease then you are Infected even if you aren't transformed yet.

Of course, any spellcaster I make is still going to have the flamethrower spell for a good reason.

[KCKitsune]

Reading through the rules for the infected, I realized that, technically, essence loss from HMHVV III (or any other strain) does not cause magic loss, unless it lowers your maximum magic below your current magic. After all, if you've caught the disease then you are Infected even if you aren't transformed yet.

Of course, any spellcaster I make is still going to have the flamethrower spell for a good reason.

Stunbolt and/or stunball. If the corpse eating freaks just fall down then the chance of them bleeding or biting you are very much reduced. After you knock them out, just bolt/ball them again and go into physical overflow and kill them. Less drain than a physical spell.

[rathmun]

Stunbolt and/or stunball. If the corpse eating freaks just fall down then the chance of them bleeding or biting you are very much reduced. After you knock them out, just bolt/ball them again and go into physical overflow and kill them. Less drain than a physical spell.

Of course I'll use stunbolt to knock them out. Flamethrower is for incineration of biological contaminants. Just because I know better than to touch the corpse doesn't mean anyone else does, and I'd rather not have anyone else exposed either. It's not that I'm humanitarian or anything, but every new ghoul is another ghoul that might infect me.