Ghouls: Do you tolerate them? Options

[PirateChef]

It approaches you normally... but it's now close enough so it could easily touch you... or spit on you... or attack. It's still talking about the weather, but what if that's just a ruse? And the stench... but it does nothing,. But it could. Maybe without wanting to, a little stumbling, a sneeze, a cough... and what if others think you are infected? Your family?

Like I said, if it approaches normally I ignore it. But if it gets within lunging distance, I move to keep the space there. I don't let people get that close to me in RL unless I know them, why would any sane Shadowrunner? And if it has the mental capacity to talk to me about the weather as a ruse to get close enough to kill me, the fact that it's a ghoul doesn't matter, it's trying to kill me anyway. I don't think Ghouls feel the need to go around spitting on people in order to infect them.

[Knight Saber]

Maybe it's not a retcon, but a new development? The rising mana level has empowered the virus, making it more powerful and virulent than before? Ghouls have just started to make progress in being seen as people instead of beasts and then WHAM, this happens and things start to slide back. Pro and anti-ghoul rights people come into conflict on the streets, infections start spreading... Could be an interesting setup.

[BishopMcQ]

Fuchs--There is a Bounty Listing for the CAS and UCAS for all types of Infected in Running Wild, so you can KoS and get paid. Just avoid doing that in say...Asamando.

I know about the bounty, but the book also states that law hasn't been enforced in some time. And why not doing that in Asamando? In my game, that's a hellhole filled with monsters, nothing like the utopia depicted in Feral Cities.

To answer your question from the other thread, don't kill them in Asamando because it is one of the nations that acknowledges ghoul rights. There instead of killing a flesh-eating monster, you will have committed murder. I'm not calling it utopia, but I am saying that the Kill on Sight mentality will get you into a lot more trouble in certain nations. Be prepared and understand the choices, if you still kill them, that's up to you, it's not for me to judge.

Edit: the timestamps are caused by our drastically different time zones.

[Warlordtheft]

Yep. Such is life in the Sixth World. Undoubtedly someone is working on that somewhere.

Would pointing a gun at it and then it deciding to negiate or attack be a way to tell? If it negotiates it is sentient and you're able to deal with it and not blow it way like on night of the living dead (hey maybe you want to send them your dead, you come up with a reason). Though there would be a significant ick factor, and your noteriety would take a hit.

[Warlordtheft]

I know about the bounty, but the book also states that law hasn't been enforced in some time. And why not doing that in Asamando? In my game, that's a hellhole filled with monsters, nothing like the utopia depicted in Feral Cities.
To answer your question from the other thread, don't kill them in Asamando because it is one of the nations that acknowledges ghoul rights. There instead of killing a flesh-eating monster, you will have committed murder.

Now the fact that in Asmondo-is led by a ghoul. Ghoul does not mean stupid monster. (Some are, but she is breeding that line out). Now packs of the feral ghouls would at best be used for slave labor. An interesting side note-no one want's to fight Asmondo-especially mercs. Would you want to fight an entire army that sees you as its next nukkit burger?

As per canon it is one of the mmore stable African countries.

[Bull]

I have two things to add...

First, I view Ghouls in Shadowrun much the same way as they are portrayed in the Fallout games. A lot of them are monsters, either mindless, ravening beasts that have given over to their hunger, or they're just evil, enjoying their life and preying on humanity (I consider most of these to be relativly insane on some level or another).

But there are those that still retain their full intellect, their sanity, and their humanity (such as it is). These are fully capable of interacting with normal society (for the most part) and try their best to find ways around their "condition", and view it as a curse. I'm sure somewhere on the Matrix 20-something girls write bad semi-erotic fanfic about how tragic and noble they are, and occasinally in this fanfic they probably twinkle and sparkle in the sunlight. Or something (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Second, during Bull's original 6 year campaign, we started off in Chicago before Bug City came out, and eventually built up to that event. Bug City was one of the first sourcebooks to really start dealing with the Ghouls on any major level, and they ended up playing a big part in our home campaign. THey were a MAJOR ally, and a big source of information, gear, and whatever else once the walls went up, since as dual natured creatures, they were better equipped to fight the bugs than a lot of the "normal" folks in the CZ. Helping the Ghouls was a small focus of our game after we got out of the CZ even.

<shrug>

There's a lot of ways to play the game, and frankly, a lot of characters in the Canon SR world fully agree with Fuchs' take on the ghouls. And it's a perfectly valid way to run them in your games if you like.

Personally, I view Vampires much the same way, but that's my own personal bias against the bleeders in RL spilling into my game. If I could find a good reason to put Elves into the same category, I probably would (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Bull

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Maybe it's not a retcon, but a new development? The rising mana level has empowered the virus, making it more powerful and virulent than before?

That's why I said that Running Wild makes the retcon official: It changend history.

[BishopMcQ]

Rotbart--How does a new development change history? Knight seems to be suggesting that the rules have changed due to a rise in mana on a recent scale, not an undoing of the past.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Because that's exactly what Running Wild does: It rewrites history. Plain and simple.

The funny thing is that it even goes as far as to claim that KHMHVV is nearly immune to healing magic... just it doesn't have that property. It's pretty messed up.

[The Jake]

There is no way making Kreiger strain of HMHVV more virulent would in any way aid their integration into society.

I haven't read Running Wild but this will make ghouls more like zombies out of 28 Days Later. I'm inclined to agree with Fuchs interpretation.

Right now, I have a ghoul NPC cybersurgeon who runs a shadow clinic that my PCs use. Under this re-write, there is no way any sane person would use him as a doctor for fear of Infection.

How the hell am I supposed to retcon that? There's only so much I can write off as 'increasing mana levels'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

- J.

[Falconer]

What you haven't played Left4Dead yet?! (That's the only effect I can see from ghouls in a city... with that level of virulence... only thing left being the immune/carriers).

It's time... and I agree w/ the original poster... with this, it's now open season on ghouls.

You can't make the disease that virulent without turning it into a plague. And plagues tend to be one of the few things which wakes the slumbering masses and activates their survival instinct.

It'd be assault for a ghoul to even come close to someone, which means no interactions or some kind of ghetto which no one enters at the very least.

[Kronk2]

No.

[Bull]

Umm, don't you still need to get bitten, or whatever, to get infected? And again, Ghouls are, generally, intelligent creatures. They need to eat flesh, but that doesn't mean they want to. And the ones that do are much like your classic Vampires... most don't allow someone to turn. They kill them instead for food.

<shrug>

Even with the new rules, I don't see this as the new VITUS. There might be small outbreaks due to feral ghouls (Or just asshole ghouls), but these would likely quickly get contained. Probably by the segment of the ghoul population that DOESN'T want to get hunted out of extinction.

[Fuchs]

Umm, don't you still need to get bitten, or whatever, to get infected? And again, Ghouls are, generally, intelligent creatures. They need to eat flesh, but that doesn't mean they want to. And the ones that do are much like your classic Vampires... most don't allow someone to turn. They kill them instead for food.

<shrug>

Even with the new rules, I don't see this as the new VITUS. There might be small outbreaks due to feral ghouls (Or just asshole ghouls), but these would likely quickly get contained. Probably by the segment of the ghoul population that DOESN'T want to get hunted out of extinction.

Contact vector, bull. And pardon me, but your idea of ghouls containing ghouls is rather... naive. If ghouls existed today I can guarantee you that they'd not be left to polive themsevels, they'd be exiled to some island at best, and shot on sight elsewhere if they look like they might even be thinking of doing anyhting but waiting on the spot for the deportation team in hazmat suits. It's not aids, it's the black death spread by touch and no vaccine is working.

[The Jake]

Bull, what Fuchs is saying is that Running Wild retconned HMHVV so that it is not only harder to resist but spreads via Contact, not Injection like you, I and every sane person would run it. With not even a weak vaccine that could be applied (only magic) this would compound the problem exponentially. Fuchs point about it being comparible to the Black Death is spot on. At least I am getting some ideas for a racist, pro human political party coming to power - something analgous to the New Revolution or Nazis.

I haven't got the book btw, just going by what I'm reading here.

- J.

[Bull]

Ahh, well, obviously, I don't have the book myself.

And that's just stupid. So, while i'll keep the virulancy, I'll porbably drop the contact bit.

[Fuchs]

Bull, what Fuchs is saying is that Running Wild retconned HMHVV so that it is not only harder to resist but spreads via Contact, not Injection like you, I and every sane person would run it. With not even a weak vaccine that could be applied (only magic) this would compound the problem exponentially. Fuchs point about it being comparible to the Black Death is spot on. At least I am getting some ideas for a racist, pro human political party coming to power - something analgous to the New Revolution or Nazis.

Not even magic works well:

Cure Disease
Type: M • Range: T • Duration: P • DV: (Disease DV) – 2
This spell is used at any point after infection to help a patient overcome
illness. The infected character receives a number of additional dice on
her Disease Resistance Test equal to the spell’s net hits. It does not
heal any damage already inflicted by the disease (that takes a separate
Healing spell).

So, to reliably beat the infection, how many hits do you need to have enough bonus dice to fight off the disease? You need 8 hits on the test with body. How many NPCs would manage to fight off an infection even with a mage of high power?

[HappyDaze]

That 8 neds to be reduced to something more reasonable, like a 4. Reducing the Penetration down would work well too. And get the damn thing back to Injection.

[BishopMcQ]

Contact Vector requires skin to skin contact and Chemical seal offers complete protection (unaffected by Penetration). (Augmentation 129).

Now, Ghouls are visibly different from everyone else--they smell due to their diet, milky white eyes, sallow complexion, etc. If one of them is walking through the mall, you can bet that people will notice. Building on that, ghouls know that all it takes is one asshole with a gun to ruin their day and the worst thing that would happen to the perp is maybe being charged with discharging a firearm in public. Meanwhile, the ghoul is dead...

There are a lot of reasons for ghouls to live on the fringes of society--they live in the Redmond Barrens, Aurora Warrens, or in the CZ. I've never seen a reference to a family of ghouls living in Bellevue. Are ghouls scary? They are fucking terrifying if you get caught in a dark alley with one, Are they going to take over the world? Not today.

I'm curious why the sudden idea of ghouls taking over the world started now though. The disease entries are listed in Runners Companion, so they have been out here for a year. Did people not notice, was there something in the RW text that suddenly pushed the button, is this a rehashing of an argument I missed a year ago, something else?

[Fuchs]

There are reports of ghouls visiting restaurants and other classy places thanks to disguises - check the Jackpointer Hannibelle.

And both Rotbart and myself argued against such stuff back when the Ghoul Utopia was introduced already.

[hobgoblin]

any ghoul tricky enough to sneak into such a place probably have the smarts to go long sleeves, gloves and face mask of some sort.

and if one think the face mask part is odd, take a look at present day tokyo for instance...

as for shoot on sight vs stop to talk, one aspect to consider is that at least anyone but the sinless will have access to a comlink, so asking for directions or the time of day will no longer be a common event...

[The Jake]

Contact Vector requires skin to skin contact and Chemical seal offers complete protection (unaffected by Penetration). (Augmentation 129).

...

I'm curious why the sudden idea of ghouls taking over the world started now though. The disease entries are listed in Runners Companion, so they have been out here for a year. Did people not notice, was there something in the RW text that suddenly pushed the button, is this a rehashing of an argument I missed a year ago, something else?

I think it changed when HMHVV became Contact based...

- J.

EDIT: At least based on my reading of this thread that is.

[Bull]

I think it changed when HMHVV became Contact based...

- J.

Yeah, I'm not a fan of that change. Since I haven't been playing a whole lot of Shadowrun, nor am I a fan of the HMHVV races (and hence haven't read the Runners Companion rules for 'em), I really wasn't aware that it had changed...

I think that's something I'll houserule out, like I said above.

And Fuchs, as someone (McQ maybe) said in another thread, we'll agree to disagree on how we see certain elements of Shadowrun. And that's cool. There's about 400 different flavors of Shadowrun. I like mine old school flavored, with a lot of high action, fantasy, and drama, but only a few tablespoons of of reality, just enough to keep it grounded a bit.

Bull

[Fuchs]

Yeah, I'm not a fan of that change. Since I haven't been playing a whole lot of Shadowrun, nor am I a fan of the HMHVV races (and hence haven't read the Runners Companion rules for 'em), I really wasn't aware that it had changed...

I think that's something I'll houserule out, like I said above.

And Fuchs, as someone (McQ maybe) said in another thread, we'll agree to disagree on how we see certain elements of Shadowrun. And that's cool. There's about 400 different flavors of Shadowrun. I like mine old school flavored, with a lot of high action, fantasy, and drama, but only a few tablespoons of of reality, just enough to keep it grounded a bit.

If you house rule the change out you at least partially agree.

[Bull]

If you house rule the change out you at least partially agree.

I do a bit. Like I said, I don't like the contact bit. It makes my early comments in this kind of unreasonable. You're right, atthat point,they become lepers. They're not even an AIDS equivalent at that point. I think that's incredibly unreasonable, unless Carriers are so damn rare (Like, 1 in 1000 or something crazy) that it renders them kinda moot anyways.

As it stands, I'd probably keep carriers at a decent ration (50% or better), but reduce the transmission vector from Touch to "bodily fluid" (aka, bite or, umm, "other"). At that point, they're icky, most people will be highly distrustful, there will be a lot of hatred and bigotry, but in general they're on par with current AIDS patients as far as virility. Heck, without a 100% Carrier rate, they're actually a little LESS dangerous, by and large.

Of course, your feral and insane asshole ghouls are a whole 'nother story (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)