Ghouls: Do you tolerate them? Options

[IceKatze]

hi hi

So the more healthy you are the more deadly it is?... makes no sense...

I guess I was thinking about the relationship between certain toxins and metabolism. Fast metabolism is generally considered a sign of good health but can be detrimental in some cases because it speeds up the reaction to certain toxins.

I still think the transformation probabilities should be more smoothly distributed between average joe and hulking troll, but I am once again at a loss for how to do so.

(The above rule was inspired in part by ramming damage, where the squared/cubed, strength/mass relationship makes the rule make perfect sense)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

hi hi

I guess I was thinking about the relationship between certain toxins and metabolism. Fast metabolism is generally considered a sign of good health but can be detrimental in some cases because it speeds up the reaction to certain toxins.

I still think the transformation probabilities should be more smoothly distributed between average joe and hulking troll, but I am once again at a loss for how to do so.

Body is not an indicator of Metabolism, it is an Indicator of Health... I have seen chronically unhealthy people with tremendous metabolisms... and Vice Versa...

But yes, it is a quandry...

[crizh]

Particularly as Body is the stat used to resist disease.

By going with Bod/2 + X you ensure that the disease is fatal to everyone.

[Stahlseele]

Yes, it is official. Asamando was formed in 2030. Assuming a general 'generation' of 20 years, that puts them at 3rd generation.

i was talking about certain ghouls not being infective. . but i had thought it the other way around, only BORN GHOULS could infect other people, not ghouls made by infecting other people . . and i thought i had made the bit about certain ghouls not being infective up from my very own mind . . get out of my mind ._.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Particularly as Body is the stat used to resist disease.

By going with Bod/2 + X you ensure that the disease is fatal to everyone.

No Doubt...

[Critias]

For the "fix" I'd suggest, the biggest single issue would be changing it from Contact to Injection. Injection would require effort on the part of the Ghoul in question to infect someone -- a bite, a nail-gauge, classic feral-Ghoul-type melee attacks. Broken skin in some way, and then some contact of some sort. All the old favorite zombie/werewolf/vampire sort of stuff. Contact is just...too easy. Too accidental, too hard to not spread the disease. As it's written, the well-nigh-impossible-to-resist disease itself makes such casual infection just plain ridiculous, unless you guys are trying to change the game to ZombieRun by 2075 (or, instead, to get Ghouls wiped out by a collective effort on behalf of every other sentient creature on the planet, eradicated so that the rest of metahumanity might live). If a Ghoul had to work at infecting someone, be obvious about it, and start gnawing and slashing at you instead of accidentally doing so by shaking your hand, then that level of contagion (and/or violent paranoia) wouldn't necessarily have to exist.

That'd fix it so that a feral Ghoul running around chewing on people = fair game, blow it away the same way you would a rabid dog. A "normal" Ghoul just walking down the street and saying hello, holding the door open or handing you a credstick = not as big a deal. Everyone's happy.

Dropping the power by about half would be my second fix, but really the Contact/Injection thing would fix MOST of the problem. The ridiculous numbers for it are secondary to the ridiculous infection method.

i was talking about certain ghouls not being infective. . but i had thought it the other way around, only BORN GHOULS could infect other people, not ghouls made by infecting other people . . and i thought i had made the bit about certain ghouls not being infective up from my very own mind . . get out of my mind ._.

I think you have it backwards. I'm pretty sure that born Ghouls can't infect people, and infected Ghouls can/do.

[hobgoblin]

Ancient History does not seem to think so, as shown in his step-by-step example of ghoul infection.

So, if you are correct and my suggestion is already RAW, it needs significant clarification.

i guess it all depends on what one reads into "will not longer accumulate".

thing is that while the text reads as if one resets the power to the number stated in the book, and then add the leftover from the previous test, i think its more correct to read it as keeping the reminder of the previous test, and then adding the stated power, this repeated the number of times specified. After that its a matter of fighting of the reminder, with as many tests as it may take.

so its a case of first test: 0+8, second test: reminder+8, repeat 8 more times, then roll as needed to bring the reminder to zero.

[hobgoblin]

For the "fix" I'd suggest, the biggest single issue would be changing it from Contact to Injection. Injection would require effort on the part of the Ghoul in question to infect someone -- a bite, a nail-gauge, classic feral-Ghoul-type melee attacks. Broken skin in some way, and then some contact of some sort. All the old favorite zombie/werewolf/vampire sort of stuff. Contact is just...too easy. Too accidental, too hard to not spread the disease. As it's written, the well-nigh-impossible-to-resist disease itself makes such casual infection just plain ridiculous, unless you guys are trying to change the game to ZombieRun by 2075 (or, instead, to get Ghouls wiped out by a collective effort on behalf of every other sentient creature on the planet, eradicated so that the rest of metahumanity might live). If a Ghoul had to work at infecting someone, be obvious about it, and start gnawing and slashing at you instead of accidentally doing so by shaking your hand, then that level of contagion (and/or violent paranoia) wouldn't necessarily have to exist.

funny thing is that the fluff of the disease seems to indicate that the victim needs at least a open sore on the surface touched to be infected. this contradicts the definition of contact in both SR4 and augmentation that basically say that skin contact is needed (SR4 covering gas or fluid toxins, augmentation mostly aura contact illnesses).

[Tiger Eyes]

i was talking about certain ghouls not being infective. . but i had thought it the other way around, only BORN GHOULS could infect other people, not ghouls made by infecting other people . . and i thought i had made the bit about certain ghouls not being infective up from my very own mind . . get out of my mind ._.

Runners Companion, pg. 77:

Characters that are born Infected are not carriers and cannot pass the virus on to others, though their children may still be born Infected. This can be represented by the Infertile Infected quality.

So, once you've had children, and those children have children, while they are ghouls, they are not contagious. So when you see a ghoul chatting up her coworker at S-K, you might want to consider: was she born that way (and therefore is not contagious) or was she infected as an adult (and therefore may be contagious)?

[IceKatze]

By going with Bod/2 + X you ensure that the disease is fatal to everyone.

While I accept that my suggestion is flawed, It is no more fatal then the disease as currently written. Trolls with a near maximum augmented body attribute (14-15) would have face a disease with a power of 8, which is where it currently stands. Everyone else would have an easier time with it.

But as I said, I already concede that there are flaws in my suggestion.

Edit: Are born ghouls immune to the disease?

[Fuchs]

So, once you've had children, and those children have children, while they are ghouls, they are not contagious. So when you see a ghoul chatting up her coworker at S-K, you might want to consider: was she born that way (and therefore is not contagious) or was she infected as an adult (and therefore may be contagious)?

Just consider what ammo to use!

[Cthulhudreams]

Depends on how you handle dehydration.

Obviously if you are in the middle of the Sahara you are fragged. If you are at home in a temperate climate and you go to bed when you get sick you'll most likely be fine. I think my numbers might be out, it might only be 42 hours of paralysis on average.

You've forgotten that bed rest is considered treatment and gives you a benefit.

This is something you need to remember, given that you're relying on the stun track to overflow into physical. Seriously like everyone in this thread has forgotten that. Why do you persist in forgetting that? How else do people recover stun boxes in your game?

What the hell?

You guys are running around saying POWER 2 FLU IS DEADLY OMGOMGOMG, but you're not doing the maths right. Power 6 is just shy of lethal on average, with only bed rest if it does stun damage. Flu 2 is a wet week.

[crizh]

No, I was ignoring damage until Power exceeded 11.

At which point it doesn't matter how quickly you recover your stun track, you are taking Physical Damage every 12 hours. First one box, then two, then three, etc, etc, etc...

[Cthulhudreams]

I'm pretty sure bedrest is medical treatment which adds to your resistance roll. I don't have my book infront of me - and that's what shaves it down to less than lethal (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[crizh]

The adders that Augmentation permits for Disease Resistance Tests are Protective Systems, implants or medicines. Doesn't say anything about a bonus for 'bed rest'.

That would be Healing Tests you are thinking of.

edit

On checking I find that you don't get a bonus to Healing Tests for bed rest. If you ain't in bed resting you don't get Healing Tests at all.

[Cardul]

2. In a clear, concise method as possible (lol), what is the solution you'd like to see to the issue of HMHVV III? Changing it to "injection"? Producing antivirals or immunizations that work and are priced reasonably? Saying the virus doesn't live outside a host for more than 1.8 seconds? [again, I'm asking for clear and concise statements... which might be a joke since this thread is 12 pages long... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) ]

1) Clear, concise definition in the rules of what constitutes contact for the HMHVV III, Kreiger Strain, in the rules for it, not the fluff. (Fluff gives what people think,
rules give the facts.)
2) There used to be a specific anti-viral for HMHVV III, Kreiger Strain. While I could, indeed, see that it is no longer as effective, bringing it back
with an effect like: Reduces the penetration of HMHVV by a random amount. To me, the high penetration is the biggest issue that effects the ability with treatment
to fight it off.
3) Allow Anti-virals to work, somewhat. Maybe treat them as half rating for HMHVV III Krieger Strain.
4) Tell what is and is not effected by Penetration, as, right now, the rules can be interpreted that everything you can do, including spells, is
subject to Penetration, or it could be interpreted that only medicines, and implants are subject to it.

I know it is too late to get these fixed before GenCon, but these can be put in an errata PDF, or even one of the e-books that are being worked on.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Tell what is and is not effected by Penetration, as, right now, the rules can be interpreted that everything you can do, including spells, is subject to Penetration, or it could be interpreted that only medicines, and implants are subject to it.

It doesn't affect implants, that's one thing that's clear - they are listed seperately from protective systems. Nanites are unaffected, as would be magic and qualities.
It does affect gear like chemsuits and medicine/vaccines.

[HappyDaze]

It doesn't affect implants, that's one thing that's clear - they are listed seperately from protective systems. Nanites are unaffected, as would be magic and qualities.
It does affect gear like chemsuits and medicine/vaccines.

Note: I'm not attacking the messenger, just the message.

That's really stupid. How does having a chemsuit (an impermeable barrier) on NOT provide protection while a filter in your kidneys does? If a chemsuit doesn't protect you, then neither do walls and windows between you and the ghoul, right? It spits on your windshield and you're at risk...

[toturi]

Note: I'm not attacking the messenger, just the message.

That's really stupid. How does having a chemsuit (an impermeable barrier) on NOT provide protection while a filter in your kidneys does? If a chemsuit doesn't protect you, then neither do walls and windows between you and the ghoul, right? It spits on your windshield and you're at risk...

Never assume the physics of the game world work the same as in the real world.

OK, that came out a little more sanctimonous than my usual but I think you get the point.

[bluedragon7]

Most important thing to change:
Change Contact to Injection, as that fits the existing fluff (the need for open wounds)

The Power could be reduced to 6, making it still likely that most infected will become ghouls but gives Luck more chance.

The Penetration should stay as it reflects that there is no known pharmaceutical against HMHVV III.

And while you are at it: clear up penetration rules, it is worded ATM not clearly enough what a protective system is, making different interpretations possible.

Imho it should affect anything that gives you additional dice to your disease test to bring it in line with armor penetration.

O Cells are a problem in this regard, as they work by reducing the power of the disease. Maybe they only work at half effect against HMHVV III?

[Zormal]

I wholly agree with changing Contact to Injection, and this being the most important change.

Penetration is another thing that needs addressing. Does it nullify chemical protection? I can understand the rating, if it only affects additional dice in the Disease Resistance Test. Chemsuits should still provide protection, in my opinion.

First glance, I liked the idea of using the first resistance test to see if you get infected at all, but on second thought I think it might decrease the danger of infection too much. This thing is supposed to be deadly, after all. But as it stands, you either get O-cells or you turn ghoul. There should be another way to get rid of the infection. I hope you guys figure something out (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[KCKitsune]

O Cells are a problem in this regard, as they work by reducing the power of the disease. Maybe they only work at half effect against HMHVV III?

Why? HMHVV III is a disease and as such can be detected and fought like any other disease.

[Zormal]

Why? HMHVV III is a disease and as such can be detected and fought like any other disease.

I'm guessing it's because O-cells are not in line with the other pharmaceutical products. At least in my mind, the problem is not that it works, but that it's the *only* thing that works (and so well). I don't want to lose the only help available, but it is a bit asymmetrical.

Well... Immunization by Gene Therapy *might* also work by RAW, but it might go a bit against the fluff... there being no vaccine and all. 0.1 essence and 20 000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) is not too bad, though O-cells are still a lot more desireable because they're universal.

Then again, from a role-playing perspective, I'd rather have something that helps me with HMHVV III specifically than turn impervious to all diseases.

[KCKitsune]

Then again, from a role-playing perspective, I'd rather have something that helps me with HMHVV III specifically than turn impervious to all diseases.

O-Cells cost a pretty penny, and unless you have a nano-hive then they're going to degrade, and soon become worthless.

[Cardul]

Note: I'm not attacking the messenger, just the message.

That's really stupid. How does having a chemsuit (an impermeable barrier) on NOT provide protection while a filter in your kidneys does? If a chemsuit doesn't protect you, then neither do walls and windows between you and the ghoul, right? It spits on your windshield and you're at risk...

Chemsuit still works though, by preventing contact. If a ghoul bite hits you through the chemsuit..I pretty much think it made contact with you.