Ghouls: Do you tolerate them? Options

[Fuchs]

I do a bit. Like I said, I don't like the contact bit. It makes my early comments in this kind of unreasonable. You're right, atthat point,they become lepers. They're not even an AIDS equivalent at that point. I think that's incredibly unreasonable, unless Carriers are so damn rare (Like, 1 in 1000 or something crazy) that it renders them kinda moot anyways.

As it stands, I'd probably keep carriers at a decent ration (50% or better), but reduce the transmission vector from Touch to "bodily fluid" (aka, bite or, umm, "other"). At that point, they're icky, most people will be highly distrustful, there will be a lot of hatred and bigotry, but in general they're on par with current AIDS patients as far as virility. Heck, without a 100% Carrier rate, they're actually a little LESS dangerous, by and large.

Of course, your feral and insane asshole ghouls are a whole 'nother story (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Since we can treat AIDS, but we cannot treat HMVV AIDS is far less dangerous. I'd reduce the carrier rate to 1% or less - but that's since I consider the whole "a scratch and you're dooomed, doomed, hahah - unless you burn edge, and you still lose essence anyway, sucker!" a stupid idea that's only in there to ruin a player's fun.

[Cardul]

Things that make Ghouls more acceptable nowdays:

1) They are more likely to still be sane and sentient then previously.
2) As Ancient history pointed out, there are the "Born Ghouls," who are not carriers.
3) While Ghouls need to heat metahuman flesh, they do not need to kill metahumans.
The Placenta restaurant in Neotokyo is one way, when Hollywood executes someone
would be another(I mean...why spend all that money injecting someone? 2 Nuyen for a bullet, then toss
the corpse to the Ghouls...). And, of course, I still think of Tanamous as having alot of ghouls in
charge somewhere..
This actually makes ghouls more palatable then, say, Vampires who do need to kill someone
periodically.
4) They are easily identifiable...it is always easier to accept someone you can discriminate more easily against.

The big down side is:
The Kreiger Strain is now ALOT more Virulent then it once was. Admittedly, I do not see the disease's classification of "contact" as being wrong, I do not see it as right, either. I would be more inclined to treat
it as "It only has the chance if the attack causes damage."
Though, I thought you just had to get the diseases power below your body for it to not effect you? And that
it has a 10 day duration, so you just need to reduce it below your body once, and you are good...though, the problem I see, is that it was never explained: is that 1.0 essence total from HMVV? Or 1.0 essence loss from one infection of HMVV? That makes a huge difference.

[Fuchs]

I think it's combined, else they just would have to write "if all 10 tests fail you turn into a ghoul", and not go through the trouble of having to keep track of essence loss.

[toturi]

Things that make Ghouls more acceptable nowdays:

1) They are more likely to still be sane and sentient then previously.
2) As Ancient history pointed out, there are the "Born Ghouls," who are not carriers.
3) While Ghouls need to heat metahuman flesh, they do not need to kill metahumans.
The Placenta restaurant in Neotokyo is one way, when Hollywood executes someone
would be another(I mean...why spend all that money injecting someone? 2 Nuyen for a bullet, then toss
the corpse to the Ghouls...). And, of course, I still think of Tanamous as having alot of ghouls in
charge somewhere..
This actually makes ghouls more palatable then, say, Vampires who do need to kill someone
periodically.
4) They are easily identifiable...it is always easier to accept someone you can discriminate more easily against.

The big down side is:
The Kreiger Strain is now ALOT more Virulent then it once was. Admittedly, I do not see the disease's classification of "contact" as being wrong, I do not see it as right, either. I would be more inclined to treat
it as "It only has the chance if the attack causes damage."
Though, I thought you just had to get the diseases power below your body for it to not effect you? And that
it has a 10 day duration, so you just need to reduce it below your body once, and you are good...though, the problem I see, is that it was never explained: is that 1.0 essence total from HMVV? Or 1.0 essence loss from one infection of HMVV? That makes a huge difference.

All you need to do is to get the disease's power to 0 for it not to affect you, therefore at the very first Disease Resistance, burn 1 Edge to critical success it and therefore never lose any Essense or somehow get at least 24 dice, remember once an Awakened is infected, you'd lose more than that point of Edge. Otherwise you'd need far more than 24 dice for the other Disease Resistance tests.

[hobgoblin]

another thing to consider is that a sinner ghoul can potentially live and work in isolation, thanks to telepresense...

a bit like the dolfins and orcas of blue planet, and how they interact with the human world...

[hobgoblin]

Btw, it comes to mind that we may be indirectly be arguing about the risk of a ghoul typhoid mary.

Also, will it not be in the interest of the growing ghoul population to police itself for 'willful negligence'?

And i just recalled reading about rl people trying to get infected by hiv. Whats the chance of something similar related to ghouls?

[Prime Mover]

I happen to be on my "thinking chair" this morning and going over Runners Companion sidebar discussing infected breeding. Ghouls can bear children and pass on the infection to them. But these offspring are not contagious. After all these years established ghoul enclaves could be strictly non infectious and more likely to elicit compassion.

On the other hand you could have an inbreed family of non infectious ghouls living out in the badlands. (ala The Hills Have Eyes)

[Rotbart van Dain...]

All you need to do is to get the disease's power to 0 for it not to affect you, therefore at the very first Disease Resistance, burn 1 Edge to critical success it and therefore never lose any Essense or somehow get at least 24 dice, remember once an Awakened is infected, you'd lose more than that point of Edge.

Sure, but thats only an option if the GM agrees on that way of reading Augmentation. Of course, reading it any other way would cause any disease have an infection ratio of 100%...

BTW, the preemptive loophole:

As O-Cells are neither inocculation nor antiviral agent but nanites they actually work against HMHVV. (in-game: improved immune cells - if immune cells don't work, HMHVV couldn't be resisted)
They aren't affected by penetration, either, as they are neither pharmaceuticals nor protective systems. (which refers to gear only, implants and the like don't count - and it would collide with the fact that protective systems provide resistance dice which they don't)

[Zormal]

All you need to do is to get the disease's power to 0 for it not to affect you, therefore at the very first Disease Resistance, burn 1 Edge to critical success it and therefore never lose any Essense or somehow get at least 24 dice, remember once an Awakened is infected, you'd lose more than that point of Edge. Otherwise you'd need far more than 24 dice for the other Disease Resistance tests.

I think that you would still have to do a total of 10 resistance tests (minimum), even after a critical success on the first one. Beating the test repeatedly is not easy, and you run out of edge pretty quick. That is unless you and your GM agree on another interpretation, like Rotbart said.

The number in parentheses is the minimum number of Disease Resistance Tests the character must make. Even if a previous test reduces the Power to 0, the character remains infected and must make another test to resist the effects again after Speed duration has passed, until the minimum number of tests have been made.

The speed of HMHVV III is 1 day (10). So, like pointed out before, the time to burn edge would be the last of the 'mandatory' resistance tests. You still lose essence, but at least you don't have to go on a permanent Atkins.

I think I'm gonna look for a good houserule on this one.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

I think that you would still have to do a total of 10 resistance tests (minimum), even after a critical success on the first one.

That point is here:

If the Power is reduced to zero, the disease takes no effect; otherwise apply relevant effects depending on the remaining Power rating.
If the pathogen's Power is not reduced to zero, it is added to the pathogen's Power when rolling the next subsequent Disease Resistance Test.

That can be read the way that the first test become an "Infection Check" - determining whether or not you actually catch the disease. Because if you make the test "the disease takes no effect".

And that's pretty much the only sane way to read it, because, like pointed out, otherwise, every single disease has a 100% infection ratio on vector, making you catch any and all diseases.

[knasser]

Everytime the rules contradict themselves, Toturi takes 5S damage.

Developers - Think of Toturi!

[Muspellsheimr]

Though, I thought you just had to get the diseases power below your body for it to not effect you? And that
it has a 10 day duration, so you just need to reduce it below your body once, and you are good...though, the problem I see, is that it was never explained: is that 1.0 essence total from HMVV? Or 1.0 essence loss from one infection of HMVV? That makes a huge difference.

Incorrect. You must reduce the power to 0 for the disease to have no effect, for that interval. You must make a Resistance Test each interval period, a minimum number of times equal to the number on parenthesis - this is not an Extended Test. Each time you fail, you suffer the effects of the disease, and any unresisted Power is cumulative for the next Resistance roll.

Further, it is actually very clear that the 1.0 Essence Loss required to become a Ghoul is not per infection, but total.

For those interested, here are the infection rules for Ghouls. I do not have Running Wild yet, so if anything changed, let me know.

Vector: Contact
Speed: 1 day (10)
Penetration: –6
Power: 8
Nature: Retroviral
Effect: Pain, nausea, Essence loss, transformation
HMHVV III is responsible for the creation of ghouls, and
is typically spread by unprotected contact with those creatures or
their bodily fluids. Unlike the cases of other retroviruses in this
genus, the subject is usually awake and aware during the metamorphosis.
Every time the character fails the Disease Resistance Test,
he loses 0.1 points of Essence. If his Essence falls to 0 or below,
he dies.
The character should keep track of how many points of
Essence he loses every time he is infected with HMHVV III.
After losing 1.0 points of Essence in this fashion, the disease
halts (if still ongoing). The character loses all Resonance and
technomancer abilities and gains the Infected (Ghoul) Quality
and a Magic attribute of 1 (or retains his own Magic attribute, if
higher). Revitalization gene therapy cannot recover Essence lost
to HMHVV III infection.

Vector
The vector is the method by which the disease infects the
host. Diseases spread by contact must touch the target’s skin.

Speed
A pathogen’s Speed represents the incubation period between
initial exposure and the first Disease Resistance Test. It also
represents its period of effect—how long before the effects kick in
again, and another Disease Resistance Test must be made.
The number in parentheses is the minimum number of
Disease Resistance Tests the character must make. Even if a previous
test reduces the Power to 0, the character remains infected
and must make another test to resist the effects again after Speed
duration has passed, until the minimum number of tests have
been made.

Power
Even if Power is reduced to 0, the character remains infected
until she has made all of the requisite Disease Resistance Tests (see
Speed, above). Only after the minimum number of tests have been
made and the Power reduced to 0 is the disease defeated.

If the pathogen’s Power is not reduced to zero, it is added to
the pathogen’s Power when rolling the next subsequent Disease
Resistance Test. This accumulation continues only for a number
of resistance tests as listed in parentheses after the Speed in the
pathogen description. After the minimum number of tests have
been made, the infection has peaked, and Power will no longer accumulate.
The effects of the disease will continue until subsequent
resistance tests finally reduce its Power to zero.

[Muspellsheimr]

They aren't affected by penetration, either, as they are neither pharmaceuticals nor protective systems. (which refers to gear only, implants and the like don't count - and it would collide with the fact that protective systems provide resistance dice which they don't)

Similar to Armor Penetration for weapons, a disease or
pathogen’s Penetration rating affects the rating of any protective
system used to defend against it, including pharmaceuticals.

Guess what. Magic is also a type of protective system.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

You must reduce the power to 0 for the disease to have no effect, for that interval.

That's exactly not what RAW says. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Guess what.

Yeah: O-Cells are not a protective system by the definition of the disease rules. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Additionally, they are not used to defend against it - that would be the disease resistance test, which also declares that protective systems add dice to the disease resistance test.

Magic is also a type of protective system.

Nope. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Muspellsheimr]

The number in parentheses is the minimum number of
Disease Resistance Tests the character must make. Even if a previous
test reduces the Power to 0, the character remains infected
and must make another test to resist the effects again after Speed
duration has passed, until the minimum number of tests have
been made.

The victim makes a resistance test using Body + the rating of
any protective systems, implants, or medicines. Every hit reduces
the disease’s Power by 1 point. If the Power is reduced to zero, the
disease takes no effect; otherwise apply relevant effects depending
on the remaining Power rating.
If the pathogen’s Power is not reduced to zero, it is added to
the pathogen’s Power when rolling the next subsequent Disease
Resistance Test. This accumulation continues only for a number
of resistance tests as listed in parentheses after the Speed in the
pathogen description. After the minimum number of tests have
been made, the infection has peaked, and Power will no longer accumulate.
The effects of the disease will continue until subsequent
resistance tests finally reduce its Power to zero.

"the disease takes no effect" is poor grammar at best, & I believe the line in question.

The 'reasonable' way to read this is "the disease has no effect", meaning you do not take damage, suffer from nausea, or, in the case of HMHVV, loose Essence. Nothing in that passage indicates it is speaking of the first Resistance test, nor exempts a successful test from the subsequent tests required by the Pathogen rules.

Further, "If the pathogen’s Power is not reduced to zero, it is added to the pathogen’s Power when rolling the next subsequent Disease Resistance Test" strongly indicates that there is another test, regardless of the previous result.



Your view may indeed be "the only sensible way" of reading it, but it is not Rules as Written.

[Muspellsheimr]

Yeah: O-Cells are not a protective system by the definition of the disease rules. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Additionally, they are not used to defend against it - that would be the disease resistance test, which also declares that protective systems add dice to the disease resistance test.

Nope. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

You can get away with O-Cells being unaffected due to technicality, but no such luck for Magic. Prophylaxis & Cure Disease spells explicitly provide bonus dice to the Disease Resistance Test.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Your view may indeed be "the only sensible way" of reading it, but it is not Rules as Written.

My point was that this can be interpreted both ways, RAW itself being ambigious.

BTW - Cellular Repair should be able to reset the counter for KHMHVV Essence loss as well.

[...]no such luck for Magic. Prophylaxis & Cure Disease spells explicitly provide bonus dice to the Disease Resistance Test.

Yet no-one will classify them as "protective system", but spells. Like qualities or dwarven resistance, those are modifiers. Taking Edge dice for a Disease Resistance Test won't make those "protective systems", either.

Basically, protective systems refers to external gear in contrast to implants. What's really silly is that keeping on your Chemsuit wll help with subsequent tests...

[knasser]

These rules are silly. Note I am not questioning the interpretation of them, but the effect. Aside from being so obnoxiously hard to beat that you might as well not bother having them, the contact vector as described makes it fantastically easy to pass on to the point that no-one in their right minds would allow a ghoul within leaping distance of them and the whole concept of PC ghouls goes out the window. Even if other PCs are accepting of being in close proximity to a ghoul ("No - don't pull me out of the gunfire, I'm more likely to survive the bullets than you touching me"), then I as GM still wouldn't want a PC with a 'Death Touch.' It also makes ghouls a terrible monster for me to use against the PCs. Either the PCs shoot them all dead from a distance, or they end up in close combat and almost certainly lose their character (I count being forced into playing a ghoul as losing your character). It's very binary.

And if ever ghouls want to "re-populate" their numbers, they can produce hundreds in just ten days.

[Ancient History]

Yes, thank you, this has been established. If and when (Ghost forfend) we have another edition and if (Ghost allows) I'm still there to throw my nickels in, it will be a point I will willingly bring up.

[Stahlseele]

Make up a complete Runner-Group out of various Ghoul Metavariants based in Asamondo or however that's called.
The whole frigging country is made up of canniballistic carnivourus super-human predators. would you want to be ANYTHING less than that as a runner in there?
I mean, even their Deckers and Riggers are gonna be tough SOBs!

[jerusalem7227]

being so contagious you wouldn't want to shoot one that was to close either. The impact from a projectile could launch bodily fluids and/or flesh in an area surrounding the target...netting the same result as touching.

Not in the rules...but something interesting I thought about if you wanted to be a complete azz to your players.

[Stahlseele]

And that is EXACTLY why no one would risk being near ghouls at all.
Asamondo would be nuked, the parts of cities SUSPECTED of harboring ghouls would be burned to the ground.
There would be curfews, nobody going out at night, flying drones opening fire on everything that looks REMOTELY ghoulish.
and it would be that way for SEVERAL years. Untill ALL ghouls have become extinct.
It's either that or the whole world slowly turning into ghouls without any little chance to stop this.
At least, as per the rules.

[Prime Mover]

And that is EXACTLY why no one would risk being near ghouls at all.
Asamondo would be nuked, the parts of cities SUSPECTED of harboring ghouls would be burned to the ground.
There would be curfews, nobody going out at night, flying drones opening fire on everything that looks REMOTELY ghoulish.
and it would be that way for SEVERAL years. Untill ALL ghouls have become extinct.
It's either that or the whole world slowly turning into ghouls without any little chance to stop this.
At least, as per the rules.

Having been established for some time now. Using the RAW second and third generation ghouls would no longer be contagious except to there offspring. So Asamondo wouldn't be as dangerous (at least infection wise) as one would think.

[hobgoblin]

the issue here is "contact".

how much is needed for contact to trigger? a milisecond with a pinky? a single cell of spit?

ah, SR4(244) gives a nice clue (tho its about toxins in a vial, not a body)...