Stacking Foci, Is there any benefit? Options

[Kerenshara]

The way I think I have things read, the combined foci are a single focus, activated and de-activated as a single action. If that's correct (and I may well be wrong), then does it also only count as a single focus towards maximum-active limits? But if it's all on or all off, that would mean if it's relatively powerful, it could force you to test for focus addiction everything you pushed "Start".

Thoughts?

<EDIT> Um, is it just me, or did all reference to using spellcasting and power foci to help resist drain disapear in 4A?

[Maelstrome]

The way I think I have things read, the combined foci are a single focus, activated and de-activated as a single action. If that's correct (and I may well be wrong), then does it also only count as a single focus towards maximum-active limits? But if it's all on or all off, that would mean if it's relatively powerful, it could force you to test for focus addiction everything you pushed "Start".

Thoughts?

<EDIT> Um, is it just me, or did all reference to using spellcasting and power foci to help resist drain disapear in 4A?

i believe youve got it right.

also im pretty sure power focuses no longer help with drain.

[Jaid]

not sure if it would activate all at once, but it does also count as only 1 focus towards your maximum activated and bound iirc. mind you, normally that isn't going to be a major problem, but it is theoretically possible.

and yes, 4A removed all references to spellcasting/conjuring focuses assisting in drain resistance (power focus never said anything about drain resistance)

[Kerenshara]

I don't feel like leafing through the books at the moment, but in older editions you could have held dice back from casting to aid drain (the antecedent of the mechanic I was just discussing), and I don't remember if it was an option in SR4 because I have such a small spellcasting pool to begin with that my drain pool is already bigger by something like 4 dice. But I KNOW SR4A has no mention of that option ANYWHERE.

If we're going to treat the stacked focus as one focus, then it has to be one focus for all purposes. The only time it would be a separate issue would be when checking for barrier ratings in astral space and the like - only the highest would count.

I always thought it was silly having to activate a sustaining focus THEN put a spell in it. Our group talked about the issue and agreed that you just cast THROUGH the thing, essentially activating it in the process. DEactivating it (and dropping the spell) of course still takes a separate action. Anybody else have thoughts on that part?

[Falconer]

The rules for withholding dice used to be under focuses of the individual types (spellcasting and summoning/binding only)... but they were removed from SR4a (bastards). I'd recommend it as a house rule. But power focus are so buff they could only add to the initial magic roll, only specialty foci could be withheld for drain (I agree w/ this... no reason to give any more perks to power foci). (spellcasting or summoning foci.... which worked pretty well as it got around the one focus per test rule.). So it normally went like this... use power focus to actually roll the summoning, then use the summoning focus to help resist the drain.

I would count the stacked focus as one for purposes of active foci and such (giving them a nice boost in lategame when logic limits could be easily met, especially for non-logic traditions).

The book never details exactly how to handle stacked foci and I'd say leaves it up to GM discretion. If it was me, I'd errata it to that only one type of focus can add dice to any single test. But for all other purposes a stacked focus is a single item for limitations.

One item you got wrong, it does address. The force of the focus is equal to the force of all the individual elements combined. (EG: 3 force 3 foci in one is a force 9 focus). The binding cost is equal to the sum of the individual binding costs.


If it was me... for purposes of logic capped active foci... I'd say it's one item.
For purposes of anything which adds dice, I'd treat them separately though. (too easy to get things a little too broken that way IMO)

As far as the comment on sustaining focus activation for free. I disagree strongly. Their is a huge stealth bonus in deactivating foci until you get a few initiations for advanced masking. The cost is the time it takes you to activate them. And really if you had say a sustaining focus and a power focus... that's 1 pass during which you get the hell out of sight and activate them both (or activate them and switch perception... ready your weapon... etc. there's a lot of good simple actions).

[Fastball]

I always thought it was silly having to activate a sustaining focus THEN put a spell in it. Our group talked about the issue and agreed that you just cast THROUGH the thing, essentially activating it in the process. DEactivating it (and dropping the spell) of course still takes a separate action. Anybody else have thoughts on that part?

The magical quality of the sustaining focus is to catch and hold the spell. If it isn't active, the spell will just pass through it without being caught.

[Machiavelli]

And, seriously, made "masking" the first and most important metatechnique to learn.

[darthmord]

Perhaps there should be a (Spell_Type) Drain Focus. We've got fetishes, Spellcasting foci, Conjuring Foci, etc. Why not a focus that helps with drain? Make'em costly. Mages are already a karma sink. That just adds a bit more cost to the mix.

[PBI]

I always thought it was silly having to activate a sustaining focus THEN put a spell in it. Our group talked about the issue and agreed that you just cast THROUGH the thing, essentially activating it in the process. DEactivating it (and dropping the spell) of course still takes a separate action. Anybody else have thoughts on that part?

I never had any problem with requiring a sustaining focus to be activated first. My players did/do, but I don't (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) A sustaining focus is an incredibly powerful artifact; it's the equivalent of a nuke in a velvet glove. I've had players able to cause all sorts of mayhem with sustaining foci where they otherwise wouldn't if they had to concentrate on keeping the spell going. Mages are powerful enough, they got to take their occasional bits of ick like the rest (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Falconer]

Darthmord:

There is... it's called a centering focus. You need the centering metamagic first. But after you have it... you can easily get some monstrous drain pools. (6+6 attr, 6+6 increase attrib spells, +initiate grade, +centering focus). So generally at that point, I don't think most people bother.

[McAllister]

Whoa! 6+6 Increase Attribute spells would run you either two Force 12 sustaining foci or two spirits sustaining them (and even that would be short-term) unless you want to eat -4 to all your actions, which wouldn't be fun.

It's my experience that getting Increase Attribute up to how powerful it needs to be is very difficult, and most useful for short bursts.

[Jaid]

most likely you would only need a pair of rating 5 sustaining focuses for your increase attributes... you need the spell force to be at least equal to the person's attribute, which means that if your max is 9 your optimal value is to have attribute at 4 and use a force 5 focus.

of course, if your max is in fact 11 or 12, you would want a force 6 focus, but otherwise 5 should be lots. force 12 focus would not be needed unless you are going to increase the attribute by 12 points. or if your attribute is naturally a 12, i suppose.

[McAllister]

I interpreted the line "The Force of the spell must equal or exceed the (augmented) value of the attribute being affected" to mean that, in order to raise an attribute to 9, you need a force 9 spell. However, upon further reflection, that's not the case. Good to know!

[wind_in_the_ston...]

Spellcasting foci may be used to help with drain. My GM feels that since the rules don't say that a power focus can help with drain, and there is another focus that does, power foci can't. Besides, a power focus provides more power to its owner - something which isn't usually conducive to resisting drain.

[Muspellsheimr]

Spellcasting foci may not be used to help with drain.

[Jaid]

Spellcasting foci may not be used to help with drain.

which is not to say that it wasn't a good idea to let them...

but yeah, ever since the SR4A changes, no foci other than centering can add to drain resistance any more. i don't see any major problems with allowing sorcery and conjuring foci to add to drain resistance though. certainly the power focus is a much better choice for 90% of all situations if you can get your hands on it...

[Muspellsheimr]

That change was before the Anniversary edition.

[Jaid]

the spellcasting one was. up until SR4A, that line was still in their for the summoning foci, and you could still use them for the purpose of resisting drain if you went by what the rules said.

my purpose in quoting your spellcasting focus thing was not to indicate it had been changed in the SR4A errata, but rather it was related to the part of my statement that directly followed your quote: specifically, that i think spellcasting foci *should* be allowed to add to drain dice (as well as summoning foci, for that matter)

[Neraph]

The way I think I have things read, the combined foci are a single focus, activated and de-activated as a single action. If that's correct (and I may well be wrong), then does it also only count as a single focus towards maximum-active limits? But if it's all on or all off, that would mean if it's relatively powerful, it could force you to test for focus addiction everything you pushed "Start".

Thoughts?

<EDIT> Um, is it just me, or did all reference to using spellcasting and power foci to help resist drain disapear in 4A?

It should be noted that stacked foci are considered foci at the combined force of all foci to be stacked. IE: A stacked R3 Sustaining Focus/R2 Power Focus is considered a R5 focus for leaving an astral trail, but only costs R3 Sustaining + R2 Power karma to bind.

The flexibility of such foci are balanced by the extra signature left by said foci.

[Muspellsheimr]

the spellcasting one was. up until SR4A, that line was still in their for the summoning foci, and you could still use them for the purpose of resisting drain if you went by what the rules said.

Summoning / Binding was also changed prior to SR4A.

[Jaid]

Summoning / Binding was also changed prior to SR4A.

hmmm... apparently they did... i don't recall v1.8 errata, but it looks like they finally managed to get it.

guess it was probably overshadowed by SR4A coming out.

which still doesn't change the fact that the change makes spellcasting and conjuring foci a lot less appealing to anyone who can afford a power focus, other than *extremely* specialised magicians...