HMHVV as a bioweapon Options

[The Jake]

In the ghoul thread, the discussion went along the lines of how the virulency has been increased exponentially in the new rules.

It got me thinking, why haven't we heard more about HMHVV as a bioweapon? I know the Ordo Maximus were investigating all sorts of insidious uses of the stuff and I could easily see them supporting a private enterprise or working in conjunction with some foreign military or megacorp on perfecting it as a weapon. This was back in SR2 days.

I'm wondering now that its some 15 years on, with increased virulency, why we haven't heard anything more about it being employed?

Discuss.

- J.

[Machiavelli]

Because they simply didn´t realize what they kicked off with this apparently small change of the rules?

[The Jake]

You missed the point.

This was considered back in SR2 days (read Threats and look up the chapter on the Ordo Maximus).

- J.

[HappyDaze]

If we're going to use poor rules to change the parameters of the in-game setting, we have to accept that traffic fatalities in the 2070s are vastly more common even in low-speed impacts. However, since most of us realize how idiotic thaqt would be, we ignore it. Soon enough, the zombie-plague rules-fuck will be ignored and it'll go back to any number of houseruled solutions. Which is how it should be...

[The Jake]

Let me rephrase - perhaps you should refrain from posting if you haven't read Threats.

Without people having any familiarity with the Ordo, then this thread is pointless.

- J.

[HappyDaze]

Your first line took us to the point about 4e HMHVV. That's much more of a hot topic right now than the Ordo, which was never too popular in any game I've seen as vampire consiracies are way overdone. Now intelligent ghoul conspiriacies...

[The Jake]

Even if we assume Kreiger is spread via Injection as any sane GM would rule it, whats to say someone doesn't come up with a genetically modified variant or a chemical-based delivery system which makes the virus Contact based?

It's just so evil I am really suprised that no government or mega hasn't tried playing with fire to see what they could come up with.

- J.

[knasser]

Well if you were considering putting something like this in the game, step 1 would be considering whether your players can be trusted not to mess up and either accidentally or wilfully let the plague loose and obliterate the campaign world. No-one has ever reached stage 2.

Sorry - a point made humorously, but serious nonetheless. If you're doing HMHVVIII by RAW, then such a plague would be a world changer. How would you even use such a weapon? Aside from inviting maximum retaliation just for raising the possibility of using it, you'd have to convince your targets that you were actually willing to use it. That would mean any of the following: (a) not being concerned about the consequences - e.g. you're already ghouls and don't care about civil collapse because you're ghoul survivalists; (b) have a way of protecting yourself, e.g. you've developed a vaccine and have stockpiles for you and your friends; © Are crazy.

Actually, I'm going to partially retract the above. With stakes this high, few people would be willing to call your bluff. But certainly the above are things you should consider. Now I have, I'm afraid, not read Threats I, though I have a passing familiarity with the Ordo Maximus. I wasn't aware that their aims were destruction, but were more about power and control. A weaponised form of HMHVVIII is great for the former, but I'm not sure its good for the latter. It's a Do or Don't weapon with very limited ability to partially deploy. If you have a very good degree of control over it, then maybe you could provide demonstrations - e.g. spray a particular city and watch as everyone there turns into a non-contagious ghoul. But you're asking for a lot of certainty there. And this also raises another point. How exactly do you demonstrate that you can do what you threaten you can do? This will be a requirement for using this weapon as a threat. And you'll have to be good to do it without letting yourself be traced. Of course if your aim really is just destruction, then there's little anyone can do to stop you if you have the expertise and resource. The source material for research is easily available (ghouls are everywhere). Anyone with the expertise to weaponise the virus is probably either working in or could work in an environment where they can obtain the necessary equipment without raising alarm bells with authorities. Basically, with HMHVVIII as written, if it could be made airborne or introduced to water supplies, etc, you're looking at an "I Am Legend" scenario with slim chances of anyone being able to stop it.

Of course you have to consider that its a weapon that, whilst causing the collapse of a country, does turn said population into dual-natured super-soldiers. Is that a desirable thing is a question that has to be asked. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

K.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

And the strain you would go for maximum terror is HMHVV II anyway - just that's not what the Ordo Maximus would want.

[The Jake]

It was all speculation but it was theorised the Ordo would do it to increase the number of Infected - meaning more people would share their goals (at least, that I was assume was the theory).

Or create genetically modified variants of HMHVV - e.g. vampires without a sunlight vulnerability.

I just like wondering what someone could do if they chose to carpetbomb an entire country with Kreiger and then just sit back and then kill the ghouls as they try to escape.

- J.

[hobgoblin]

Even if we assume Kreiger is spread via Injection as any sane GM would rule it, whats to say someone doesn't come up with a genetically modified variant or a chemical-based delivery system which makes the virus Contact based?

there is already, DMSO and infected body fluid (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[AllTheNothing]

In the ghoul thread, the discussion went along the lines of how the virulency has been increased exponentially in the new rules.

It got me thinking, why haven't we heard more about HMHVV as a bioweapon? I know the Ordo Maximus were investigating all sorts of insidious uses of the stuff and I could easily see them supporting a private enterprise or working in conjunction with some foreign military or megacorp on perfecting it as a weapon. This was back in SR2 days.

I'm wondering now that its some 15 years on, with increased virulency, why we haven't heard anything more about it being employed?

Discuss.

- J.

It was all speculation but it was theorised the Ordo would do it to increase the number of Infected - meaning more people would share their goals (at least, that I was assume was the theory).

Or create genetically modified variants of HMHVV - e.g. vampires without a sunlight vulnerability.

I just like wondering what someone could do if they chose to carpetbomb an entire country with Kreiger and then just sit back and then kill the ghouls as they try to escape.

- J.

Do I smell Resident Evil?
I think that a selfpropagating, selfwilled bioweapon is damn too likely to go out of control and that it takes a serious moron to do a such thing, the reaction would be a scrotched earth approach and an open war on the infected; it's much more effective to infect a few selected individual in key positions, after all the masses are there as work force/food stack, it's only those with power that need to be converted.

And by the way, Shedims make better zombies.

[IceKatze]

hi hi

I ran a campaign a little while back where I tried to replicate some of the themes from Bug City by releasing a "new" strain of HMHVV on New Seattle and having it be quarantined off. It would definitely be a world changer, but that was kind of the point. (I made secret blind fire checks whenever they were around people coughing or sneezing to see if they'd get exposed)

If someone wanted to mix ghoul blood plasma into a sustaining suspension along with DMSO, they could secretly attach sprayers (much like crop dusters) onto commuter jets and blanket most of the entire city with the disease. Another vector would be if someone was able to get into an important position in the Soycaff manufacturing plant and start mixing a little something extra into the drink.

In a place like Seattle anyway, the corps wouldn't firebomb the place because they still want to recover their valuable assets. They'd just wait until the plague starves itself off, maybe release some bio-weapons of their own to kill the ghouls.

[Doc Byte]

It got me thinking, why haven't we heard more about HMHVV as a bioweapon?

Because no one sane would use a bioweapon he can't stop from 'killing' his own people? The whole point in biowarfare is stopping it at your own front-line.

[rathmun]

In a place like Seattle anyway, the corps wouldn't firebomb the place because they still want to recover their valuable assets. They'd just wait until the plague starves itself off, maybe release some bio-weapons of their own to kill the ghouls.

Probably FABIII, Ghouls are dual natured after all.

[Method]

I would argue that weaponizing HMHVV would require the kind of resources only the governtments and megacorps possess. Thier interest as far as bioweapons would be military and from a military perspective (corporate or national) it makes no sense to develop a weapon that makes your enemy scarier, more powerful and harder to deal with.

[Ravor]

It also makes them DEAD when combined with FAB.

[hobgoblin]

hmm, super soldier, infected troll, with a implant FABIII, just in case...

[Draco18s]

It got me thinking, why haven't we heard more about HMHVV as a bioweapon?

I think this sums it up.

[Method]

It also makes them DEAD when combined with FAB.

So does phosgene or VX or any number of other agents at a fraction of the cost.

[InfinityzeN]

Zero Punctuation is the siz Draco. Love their Fallout 3 review.

[Draco18s]

Zero Punctuation is the siz Draco. Love their Fallout 3 review.

"Siz"? Not a slang term which which I am familiar.

[InfinityzeN]

It is the shit. It is a way to say it without actually saying it.

[hobgoblin]

ye gods...

[Ravor]

So does phosgene or VX or any number of other agents at a fraction of the cost.

True, but the other agents don't turn the population into flesh eating zombies to continue the spread before the FAB kills them. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif)