Why Train in Hacking When You Can Default?, Or: My Hermetic Can Outhack Your Hacker! Options Track this topic Email this topic Print this topic Download this topic Subscribe to this forum Display Modes Switch to: Outline Switch to: Standard Linear+

[Neraph]

So as it turns out, the hacking skills (Electronics and Cracking skillgroups) are all tied to Logic, but Logic is not factored into any of the tests at all; they're all Skill + Program. So why is Logic even listed, you may ask? Why, in case you wanted to default the skill, of course!

But, defaulting is bad, isn't it, you may ask? No. I'll show you.

Let's assume a human. Your normal Logic is 6(9), but we can easily do better. If we get Genetic Optomization (Logic), Exceptional Attribute (Logic), and SURGE II (Metagenetic Improvement [Logic]), our new Logic is 9(14). So let's soft-max it to 8 in chargen and get a R2 Cerebral Booster, for a total of 8(10) in chargen. Now when we default, we have a 'skill' of 9, adding our program rating as normal. Beats the pants off of your hacker now, doesn't it?

But wait.

If the person is a Nosferatu instead, we have a natural Logic of 8(12). Using our above method, we can increase that to 11(16). Starting the game with a 10 Logic, and a R2 Cerebral Booster, that's now a 10(12). We can further use Essence Drain to get that to an 18 (or 16, I forget if Essence Drain breaks natural cap or not). And then add the program's rating to that.

We can also get an additional +2 from Hot Sim.

So, without any ranks in any hacking skill, we can get 22 dice for most skills just off of freeware.

The ONLY skill that this does not work with is Electronic Warfare. Thus, Electronic Warfare is the only hacking skill you should ever buy ranks in. Otherwise, Logic out homies.

As a result, it should be noted that all hermetic mages ever should double as the party's hacker. Using the above methods, minus the Exceptional Attribute, we can fit a mage in pretty well, getting something like a 7(9) Logic, not including your Willpower, making for a respectable 9 drain dice from just one stat, for the price of one point of Essence/Magic.

[Orcus Blackweath...]

Ummm, is hacking legal untrained? For some reason I thought all the technical skills required training to use.

[Neraph]

Ummm, is hacking legal untrained? For some reason I thought all the technical skills required training to use.

Page 111, SR4. Most technical skills you can default on. Just not Electronic Warfare or some of the Build/Repair skills.

[HappyDaze]

Minor point: Geneware and HMHVV are not compatible. The latter undoes the former and prevents it from being applied later too.

[Neraph]

Minor point: Geneware and HMHVV are not compatible. The latter undoes the former and prevents it from being applied later too.

Point made. So final numbers are about 20 instead of 21. Got it. And we saved 45k nY. And that's only with Freeware R4 programs...

EDIT: But yeah, Technomancers, this thread is for you! Save you BP for other areas.

[Draco18s]

Defaulting on a hacking skill gives you:

Program Rating - 1.

BBB pg 223, hacking skill + logic, with logic replaced by the program's rating. If you have no skill you still have no skill.

[Heath Robinson]

Let's assume a human. Your normal Logic is 6(9), but we can easily do better. If we get Genetic Optomization (Logic), Exceptional Attribute (Logic), and SURGE II (Metagenetic Improvement [Logic]), our new Logic is 9(14). So let's soft-max it to 8 in chargen and get a R2 Cerebral Booster, for a total of 8(10) in chargen. Now when we default, we have a 'skill' of 9, adding our program rating as normal. Beats the pants off of your hacker now, doesn't it?

This is where you are wrong, my friend.

Sometimes a character wants to attempt an action but does not have the necessary skill. A character in this situation can still act; however, she will find it more difficult to succeed than a character who has the needed skill. Improvising when your character doesn't have the necessary skill is called defaulting. Defaulting allows a character to still make the test using only the linked attribute in their dice pool, but with a dice pool modifier of -1.

Now, the ambiguities of the English language lead to a degree of interpretation here, but there's no talk of replacing your skill. I can see two interpretations that go thus:

• You can make the test using only the attribute linked to the defaulted skill as your base DP (allowing you to use your Logic with a -1 penalty for a DP of 9, but you use only your Logic and don't include program rating)
• You can make the test using only the attribute referenced in the test definition (which means that you don't get any dice when defaulting since there is no Attribute involved in the standard Matrix tests, and you still don't get your program rating since you use only get the attribute)

[BishopMcQ]

I follow Draco's interpretation of Program-1. The fact that it is linked to Logic comes up for augmentations that provide bonuses to Logic-linked skills, or for the rare times when you interact directly with a device instead of using a program.

[Draco18s]

BBB page 223:

Using the hacking skill

Aside from directly breaking into systems, there are many other potential uses for Hacking sill. When you are directly interacting with a device,* make a Hacking kill + Logic. If you are utilizing a program, make tests using Hacking skill + program rating.

*Directly interacting is debatable, but based on the wording in the Electronic Warefare, they mean you have a device (such as a maglock passkey), or are sitting at the machine in question.

I'm pretty sure that paragraph trumps the generic defaulting text due to the dice pools involved. If you are using a program, then you use the program's rating, not logic. The devs posted here once responding to a question of "can you perform a matrix action without programs?" and the answer is "no, you most certainly can not."

I'll see if I can find the post.

Edit:

Even better:

Page 208 BBB,

Matrix skill tests use the same skill + attribute dice pool as other tests, except that since you are interfacing with the machine world, you use an appropriate device or program attribute in place of your character’s attribute.

From this thread

[Heath Robinson]

I'm pretty sure that paragraph trumps the generic defaulting text due to the dice pools involved. If you are using a program, then you use the program's rating, not logic. The devs posted here once responding to a question of "can you perform a matrix action without programs?" and the answer is "no, you most certainly can not."

I'll see if I can find the post.

The passage you quote is descriptive, not proscriptive. The majority of actions you can take have DP definitions. Defaulting operates here, too, in my opinion. If you would like, though it simply means he only gets program rating. Not even with the -1, since you've asserted that those rules overrule the Defaulting rules entirely - stating that you can't Default on Matrix tests.

Completely irrelevent, don't bother yourself. This has nothing to do with not having the program. This is about not having the skill.


Okay, rules backup for your point. Conceded.

[Neraph]

BBB page 223:



*Directly interacting is debatable, but based on the wording in the Electronic Warefare, they mean you have a device (such as a maglock passkey), or are sitting at the machine in question.

I'm pretty sure that paragraph trumps the generic defaulting text due to the dice pools involved. If you are using a program, then you use the program's rating, not logic. The devs posted here once responding to a question of "can you perform a matrix action without programs?" and the answer is "no, you most certainly can not."

I'll see if I can find the post.

Edit:

Even better:

Page 208 BBB,


From this thread

I never said you don't need programs, I simply assert you do not need the skills (except Electronic Warfare, which I specifically mention).

[Zaranthan]

I never said you don't need programs, I simply assert you do not need the skills (except Electronic Warfare, which I specifically mention).

Well, yeah, but 5 dice (7 in hot sim VR) won't get you too far in most systems.

[Draco18s]

I never said you don't need programs, I simply assert you do not need the skills (except Electronic Warfare, which I specifically mention).

But because the program replaces the stat (page 208) you're rolling Program Rating -1 for all your matrix actions. Logic never comes into it.

[Tricen]

Lets do a little substitution:

Normal pools: Attribute + Skill

Matrix pools: Program + Skill

In normal pools, when you default, you are dropping back to the "engine" of action which is your attribute. In the matrix, the "engine" is the program. In the meat world, you are dropping the skill (since you don't have one) and lowering your attribute. In the digital world, you are dropping your skill (since you don't have one) and lowering your program rating. I'm thinking this make the most sense.

[CodeBreaker]

Lets do a little substitution:

Normal pools: Attribute + Skill

Matrix pools: Program + Skill

In normal pools, when you default, you are dropping back to the "engine" of action which is your attribute. In the matrix, the "engine" is the program. In the meat world, you are dropping the skill (since you don't have one) and lowering your attribute. In the digital world, you are dropping your skill (since you don't have one) and lowering your program rating. I'm thinking this make the most sense.

And in a blinding flash Codebreaker understands what people are talking about.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

And in a blinding flash Codebreaker understands what people are talking about.

Now if only Neraph will reach enlightenment... Though I have to admit... I did like how it started out... Oh Well...
It was a heroic attempth there Neraph... Keep the Faith

[Neraph]

I finally came to the realization a number of hours ago. Work kept me from replying.

When I checked before I posted (I thought it up at work, without books), I only checked to see if you could default them, not how the actual dicepool mechanic worked out. Forgive me for thinking it was like most other skills.

[CodeBreaker]

I finally came to the realization a number of hours ago. Work kept me from replying.

When I checked before I posted (I thought it up at work, without books), I only checked to see if you could default them, not how the actual dicepool mechanic worked out. Forgive me for thinking it was like most other skills.

The Matrix rolls, being at all the same as the rest of the system!? Surely you jest!

[Neraph]

The Matrix rolls, being at all the same as the rest of the system!? Surely you jest!

I should have known better when I thought I understood the 'trix...

[Ravor]

Personally I like the various house rules that make skill important in the 'Trix, it tends to cut down on the script kiddies playing at being Deckers.

[Draco18s]

I should have known better when I thought I understood the 'trix...

No one undertstands the 'trix, not even the devs, which is part of the problem.

We have the awesome fluff from the various books, plus previous editions, plus existing mechanics for the meat world. Combining the three ends up in Wacko Land where things get convoluted and confusing.

[darthmord]

After reading the Matrix section repeatedly and getting/reading Unwired, I've come to the conclusion that the Matrix rolls should be more like so...

Program + Skill, and that Skill can be replaced by Attribute. Otherwise, Attribute is worthless in the Matrix environment. Even then, that still has shortcomings.

[Zaranthan]

There's an optional rule that changes matrix rolls to work like spells: Logic+Skill, with hits capped by force Program rating, but that screws over TMs a bit.

[MondoTrasho]

...Wacko Land where things get convoluted and confusing.

You'll have to admit you could say that about the internets in general and even more so for Dumpshock. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

There's an optional rule that changes matrix rolls to work like spells: Logic+Skill, with hits capped by force Program rating, but that screws over TMs a bit.

Yeah, like Technomancers don't have enough power already... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif)