Glasses vs. Goggles, I can't see a reason for goggles Options

[Stahlseele]

Thermo IS a bit iffy . . but maybe they learned a bit from the natural thermo eyes of dwarves and trolls. Or they used handwavium-technology to do it ^^

[Kerenshara]

Low-light has always been an electronic technology. I have a very difficult time figuring out how it would work as a purely optical technology.

Thermal is a little different because it is strictly a wavelength-perception problem. Now, if you could engineer a material that shifted infared into the visual part of the spectrum through some as-yet-impossible trick of exotic materials science, then I would say you could do it. Be aware, however, that it would be USING the visual spectrum you normally see in, so you would have to choose either-or. You couldn't "layer" it.

Make sense?

[hobgoblin]

could be that thermo is seen as passive (anything radiates thermo at some level or other), while ultrasound and radar has to use a active transmitter (ok, they can go passive, but then your probably not going to get a clear set of data about your surroundings).

[Technofreak]

Question - Does a mage actually have to see the target (With visible light) or just have Line of Sight? Could a Mage use a Lowlight Monocle covering one eye to know at what location to throw the spell, and then just do it? He still has LoS.

[Stahlseele]

I have a very difficult time figuring out how it would work as a purely optical technology.

You mean, something like cat's eyes is technological in nature? O.o
Lowlight Vision just means you have more rod cells in your eyes.

[ Spoiler ]

All organisms are restricted to a small range of the electromagnetic spectrum; this varies from creature to creature, but is mainly between 400 and 700 nm[28]. This is a rather small section of the electromagnetic spectrum, probably reflecting the submarine evolution of the organ: water blocks out all but two small windows of the EM spectrum, and there has been no evolutionary pressure among land animals to broaden this range.[29]

The most sensitive pigment, rhodopsin, has a peak response at 500 nm.[30] Small changes to the genes coding for this protein can tweak the peak response by a few nm;[2] pigments in the lens can also "filter" incoming light, changing the peak response.[2] Many organisms are unable to discriminate between colors, seeing instead in shades of "grey"; colour vision necessitates a range of pigment cells which are primarily sensitive to smaller ranges of the spectrum. In primates, geckos, and other organisms, these take the form of cone cells, from which the more sensitive rod cells evolved.[30] Even if organisms are physically capable of discriminating different colours, this does not necessarily mean that they can perceive the different colours; only with behavioral tests can this be deduced.[2]

Most organisms with colour vision are able to detect ultraviolet light. This high energy light can be damaging to receptor cells. With a few exceptions (snakes, placental mammals), most organisms avoid these effects by having absorbent oil droplets around their cone cells. The alternative, developed by organisms that had lost these oil droplets in the course of evolution, is to make the lens impervious to UV light — this precludes the possibility of any UV light being detected, as it does not even reach the retina.[30]:309


[edit] Rods and cones
The retina contains two major types of light-sensitive photoreceptor cells used for vision: the rods and the cones.

Rods cannot distinguish colors, but are responsible for low-light (scotopic) monochrome (black-and-white) vision; they work well in dim light as they contain a pigment, rhodopsin (visual purple), which is sensitive at low light intensity, but saturates at higher (photopic) intensities. Rods are distributed throughout the retina but there are none at the fovea and none at the blind spot. Rod density is greater in the peripheral retina than in the central retina.

Cones are responsible for color vision. They require brighter light to function than rods require. There are three types of cones, maximally sensitive to long-wavelength, medium-wavelength, and short-wavelength light (often referred to as red, green, and blue, respectively, though the sensitivity peaks are not actually at these colors). The color seen is the combined effect of stimuli to, and responses from, these three types of cone cells. Cones are mostly concentrated in and near the fovea. Only a few are present at the sides of the retina. Objects are seen most sharply in focus when their images fall on this spot, as when one looks at an object directly. Cone cells and rods are connected through intermediate cells in the retina to nerve fibers of the optic nerve. When rods and cones are stimulated by light, the nerves send off impulses through these fibers to the brain.[30]

so why should Thermographic/Nightvision view NOT be possible without electronics?

[Summerstorm]

And if you stick more rods in your eyes that would be fine. The thing is not electronical or not, but optical or not. ANYTHING which changes/exchanges the light between target and eye of the mage makes it impossible for him to link to the target. Magnification just bends the light... it is still the same. Anysmall layer of electronics or biomaterial which TRANSLATES the infrared/ultrasound into visible light, or creates more/other light depending on input gives you no link to the real object, but to itself. So you can't cast at it.

I would rule anything but mageglasses, periscope and optical magnification can't help a mage. If you have contacts/goggles/shades which allow light to pass AND can show you things with an imagelink/sightmod, you can use them to not stump your toe in the dark or see data... but to cast you have to turn it off and see though, unobstructed.

Just buy yourself cybereyes, dudes. It's worth the magic *g*.

[DuctShuiTengu]

You mean, something like cat's eyes is technological in nature? O.o
Lowlight Vision just means you have more rod cells in your eyes.

[ Spoiler ]

All organisms are restricted to a small range of the electromagnetic spectrum; this varies from creature to creature, but is mainly between 400 and 700 nm[28]. This is a rather small section of the electromagnetic spectrum, probably reflecting the submarine evolution of the organ: water blocks out all but two small windows of the EM spectrum, and there has been no evolutionary pressure among land animals to broaden this range.[29]

The most sensitive pigment, rhodopsin, has a peak response at 500 nm.[30] Small changes to the genes coding for this protein can tweak the peak response by a few nm;[2] pigments in the lens can also "filter" incoming light, changing the peak response.[2] Many organisms are unable to discriminate between colors, seeing instead in shades of "grey"; colour vision necessitates a range of pigment cells which are primarily sensitive to smaller ranges of the spectrum. In primates, geckos, and other organisms, these take the form of cone cells, from which the more sensitive rod cells evolved.[30] Even if organisms are physically capable of discriminating different colours, this does not necessarily mean that they can perceive the different colours; only with behavioral tests can this be deduced.[2]

Most organisms with colour vision are able to detect ultraviolet light. This high energy light can be damaging to receptor cells. With a few exceptions (snakes, placental mammals), most organisms avoid these effects by having absorbent oil droplets around their cone cells. The alternative, developed by organisms that had lost these oil droplets in the course of evolution, is to make the lens impervious to UV light — this precludes the possibility of any UV light being detected, as it does not even reach the retina.[30]:309


[edit] Rods and cones
The retina contains two major types of light-sensitive photoreceptor cells used for vision: the rods and the cones.

Rods cannot distinguish colors, but are responsible for low-light (scotopic) monochrome (black-and-white) vision; they work well in dim light as they contain a pigment, rhodopsin (visual purple), which is sensitive at low light intensity, but saturates at higher (photopic) intensities. Rods are distributed throughout the retina but there are none at the fovea and none at the blind spot. Rod density is greater in the peripheral retina than in the central retina.

Cones are responsible for color vision. They require brighter light to function than rods require. There are three types of cones, maximally sensitive to long-wavelength, medium-wavelength, and short-wavelength light (often referred to as red, green, and blue, respectively, though the sensitivity peaks are not actually at these colors). The color seen is the combined effect of stimuli to, and responses from, these three types of cone cells. Cones are mostly concentrated in and near the fovea. Only a few are present at the sides of the retina. Objects are seen most sharply in focus when their images fall on this spot, as when one looks at an object directly. Cone cells and rods are connected through intermediate cells in the retina to nerve fibers of the optic nerve. When rods and cones are stimulated by light, the nerves send off impulses through these fibers to the brain.[30]

so why should Thermographic/Nightvision view NOT be possible without electronics?

Having more rods, however, is not a function of proper eyeware, but of proper eyes. So, it would work as a way to do bioware or geneware that gives low-light vision, but you can't just put an extra set of rods in your glasses if that's what you're using to get low-light.

[DuctShuiTengu]

Question - Does a mage actually have to see the target (With visible light) or just have Line of Sight? Could a Mage use a Lowlight Monocle covering one eye to know at what location to throw the spell, and then just do it? He still has LoS.

To be able to cast, you need to be able to see the actual target, which is where the issue with optical vs electronic vision enhancements comes in.

Optical enhancements are like normal glasses to correct nearsightedness. They tweak the light to allow you to see where you otherwise would have difficulty doing so.

Electronic enhancements would be more akin to correcting your nearsightedness by displaying an image of what's in front of you at a distance where you can focus.

The first one works for spellcasting, you're still seeing the target. The second does not; you're seeing a computer generated/enhanced image of the target, not the target itself. Cybereyes remove this distinction, since they're considered part of you for magical purposes.

[Draco18s]

Thermal is a little different because it is strictly a wavelength-perception problem. Now, if you could engineer a material that shifted infared into the visual part of the spectrum through some as-yet-impossible trick of exotic materials science, then I would say you could do it. Be aware, however, that it would be USING the visual spectrum you normally see in, so you would have to choose either-or. You couldn't "layer" it.

I could see a material being designed that would glow in the visible spectrum when struck with certain wavelengths of light (such as infrared).

[Kerenshara]

Question - Does a mage actually have to see the target (With visible light) or just have Line of Sight? Could a Mage use a Lowlight Monocle covering one eye to know at what location to throw the spell, and then just do it? He still has LoS.

I've been considering just that question for a couple days, and unless a Dev says otherwise, I'm going to come down and say yes, but it's really a tossup. Theoretically, and I am sure somebody's going to disagree, the mage could just go Astral Perception and drop any direct mana spells in that way, even if it's a penalty.

[Kerenshara]

You mean, something like cat's eyes is technological in nature? O.o
Lowlight Vision just means you have more rod cells in your eyes.
so why should Thermographic/Nightvision view NOT be possible without electronics?

Because they're still replying directly to the central nervous system of the mage. You have to PASS that information to the mage's brain in an organic fashion... or at lease a fashion that cost him essence, thereby essentially making it "natural" to the mana.

[Stahlseele]

Aand we are back at square one.

Cartman: That's it, screw you guys, I'm going home

[Kerenshara]

Aand we are back at square one.

Oh, come on Stahl, you know every good argument should come back on itself!

And I have no pity for the mages, either: there are spells that can do it at F1! VERY cheap sustaining focus. Then you also get the "magical" bonus we were talking about re: natural/magical vision enhancements. Adepts can buy them at a quarter-point each. What was it Hatchetman said in the Street Sam catalog? "Get some."

[KCKitsune]

I think that every runner should have cyber... even the mages. The idea is to better, faster, and stronger than the opponents that you are going to face. Mages without 'ware are targets.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I think that every runner should have cyber... even the mages. The idea is to better, faster, and stronger than the opponents that you are going to face. Mages without 'ware are targets.

I throw my vote in with this... always get at least 1 Essence point worth of Cyberware...

[Kerenshara]

I think that every runner should have cyber... even the mages. The idea is to better, faster, and stronger than the opponents that you are going to face. Mages without 'ware are targets.

I throw my vote in with this... always get at least 1 Essence point worth of Cyberware...

You know, I HATE to say it, but I have to toss in with this. I HATE when you come down to little rules of thumb like that, but it's just too logical. If you're careful, you can pack an INSANE amount of 'ware into 1 point of ESSence. Mages & other LOGic traditions: Cerebral Boosters in improved grades are a steal. Also, see Daredrenaline in Augmentation.

The only exception is if your character had a cultural aversion to the augmentation... say NAN?

Oh, and before anybody poopoohs this, check in the older editions of the game: almost EVERY corporate mage, and MOST of the non-Native shadowrunners (leaving out the starting templates) seemed to have a little ware.

[IceKatze]

hi hi

The classic, archetypal Optical Low Light Vision.

Seriously though, to achieve optical low light vision you would need a focusing lens to direct a larger quantity of available light towards ones existing retina. It might not be the most practical thing, but it is definitely possible.

The question with a thermographically reactive substance depends on the nature of magical perception in the first place. If you have a substance that shifts infrared into visible wavelengths, is the awakened eye seeing the target, or seeing the substance? Of course some metatypes don't have that problem.

No doubt cyber eyes are an advantage, the question is, are they worth the magic attribute karma? I guess it depends on how many times a mage intends to initiate against how steady the source of karma is.

[Orcus Blackweath...]

Ahhh the age old question to Twink or not to Twink

You can min-max your character to an awesome degree. If that fits your character concept, feel free. I normally do my best to fulfill my character concept. If 1 point of essence is in character for my mage, technomancer, or adept then I do it, but normally I keep them all pure.

Now my hackers and street sams have 250k nuyen of the finest I can bye. Can you say .01 essence anyone?

[KCKitsune]

You know, I HATE to say it, but I have to toss in with this. I HATE when you come down to little rules of thumb like that, but it's just too logical. If you're careful, you can pack an INSANE amount of 'ware into 1 point of ESSence. Mages & other LOGic traditions: Cerebral Boosters in improved grades are a steal. Also, see Daredrenaline in Augmentation.

The only exception is if your character had a cultural aversion to the augmentation... say NAN?

Oh, and before anybody poopoohs this, check in the older editions of the game: almost EVERY corporate mage, and MOST of the non-Native shadowrunners (leaving out the starting templates) seemed to have a little ware.

Yes Cerebral Booster is a steal, but I always went with the Synaptic Booster. Yes you might have less dice for Drain, but with the ability to go faster and more times you might just get in the first shot... which might be all that you need.

Also for Drain, you could always go with the Fetish for those uber draining physical spells. Yes it would suck to lose the fetish, but that's why you keep "backup" spells like Stun Bolt &/or Stun Ball. Low Drain, useful against spirits, hits like a ton of bricks, & non-lethal if you don't want them to be. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[Technofreak]

The only character I cannot see buying Cyberwear is a Technomancer. Resonance is just too important (Plus, he doesn't really need it. A Techno basically has an image link in his normal eyes, so you can just overlay any benefits from Sensors and get Flare Comp from Contacts).

Mages on the other hand seem to benefit a fair bit from lots, and dont have their Drain att reduced.

[Draco18s]

Shapeshifters/drakes. There's almost no reason for them to have it either, it only benefits their metahuman form, not their animal/dracoform. I did look at some cyber when I built my drake, but anything I wanted I wanted to have in both forms, so I had to go for an alternative (glasses, increased reflexes adept power, etc).

[Doc Byte]

Shapeshifters/drakes. There's almost no reason for them to have it either, it only benefits their metahuman form, not their animal/dracoform. I did look at some cyber when I built my drake, but anything I wanted I wanted to have in both forms, so I had to go for an alternative (glasses, increased reflexes adept power, etc).

Once my cyber-mage-latent-drake will awake he'll feel really weak as a drake without his ware. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Ravor]

Shinobi Killfist excuse me? One of the best defenses against a Runner Incursion is to control your enviroment, and I've been around long enough to remember all of the threads bitching and whining about how powerful magic is and how Mages outclass everyone else. Well guess what, if Dumpshockers can come up with the problem then over the course of the decades since magic has returned than so has the corps and they aren't going to ask themselves whether or not it is "fair" or "being a dick" to do their best to level the playing field. All they are going to be concerned about is whether or not the measures are cost effective.

Hell's Bells, it doesn't really take that much intelligence to figure out that stacking as many vision mods as they can against everyone is a good idea.

[Kerenshara]

Shinobi Killfist excuse me? One of the best defenses against a Runner Incursion is to control your enviroment, and I've been around long enough to remember all of the threads bitching and whining about how powerful magic is and how Mages outclass everyone else. Well guess what, if Dumpshockers can come up with the problem then over the course of the decades since magic has returned than so has the corps and they aren't going to ask themselves whether or not it is "fair" or "being a dick" to do their best to level the playing field. All they are going to be concerned about is whether or not the measures are cost effective.

Hell's Bells, it doesn't really take that much intelligence to figure out that stacking as many vision mods as they can against everyone is a good idea.

Well said, though I probably wouln't have singled out somebody in quite that tone, but that's me. As to your point, if I was a corp thinking Magial security, I'd have every interior hallway with automatically controlled lighting. Then if the 'runners show up, the spider drops containment doors (NO, NOT blast doors. This isn't the Death Star.) whose main purpose is to seal out ambient light, and slow up the 'runners. Then pop thermal smoke. That eliminates 100% of a mage's natural senses needed to cast... unless they pop astral. But they can't effectively target that little non-living drone, now can they? Then just have each of the response team wearing armor with integrated radar. That's negated the mage pretty effectively... until the mage casts "Clean Air" while splitting their dice pool and dropping a low level light spell into a F1 sustaining focus.

The point is that a mage has to be able to perceive the target through some inate ability not based on radar or untrasound or whatever. Now, a really ballsy mage who knows none of her teammates are in front of her thanks to the TacNet reporting to their glasses might choose to go indiscriminate with the indirect combat spells. "Hey, we blinded the mage! Get 'em!" as a little tongue of flame appears out of the darkness, and the response team captain has time to mutter "Ah, drek..." before he's all like crispy critter'd.

Of course, a mage could always maintain "Detect Enemies - Extended" in a sustaining focus. It won't tell you precisely enough for direct combat spells, but more than enough for "government work". You seriously mean your mage doesn't? How about "Spatial Sense - Extended"? Makes it a little tough to ambush the party. Wandering patrols are still a problem, but there are spells for that, too, and they're cheap on the drain if you keep the force low. Just to know where people are within 20 meters? That's pretty wiz in my book.

It's always a battle of measure and countermeasure. 'Runners learn with experience and so do corps. I know our team (full) mage can't wait to get levitate, given the number of times it would have made his job a drekload easier as an example. I'm the one with the two detects on tap, so I'm on watch. I also have the best Perception on the team, so it works out.

Live and learn... assuming you live. Good luck, and good hunting.

[Ravor]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif) Aye, what can I say? I get testy when people call me a dick because I'm guilty of believing that my NPCs should be just as intelligent and canny ( or not ) as they realistically should be.

Good point with bringing up the detection and indirect spells, although I still think it's just easier to get cybereyes and be done with it, even if you are slinging flamebolts.