Help a newb out? Options

[Totentanz]

Greetings, Dumpshock. I'm new to SR (got the books about a month ago), but not new to RP'ing in general. I've got about 15 years of table-top experience spread between the Trinity-iverse, DnD (multiple editions), oWoD, and a few excursions into random systems here and there. So, I'm used to rules-heavy (DnD 3.5) and subtle, thinking-oriented (Vampire) play. Right now I've got SR4 (SR4A on the way), Street Magic, Arsenal, and the Runner's Companion.

First, are there any good general introduction/advice threads I should read on building and outfitting a character?

Second, I'm looking at playing the group's only Awakened, everyone else having already called their respective niches. Any advice you could spare or threads you could point me to would be greatly appreciated. Right now I'm toying with a generalist dark magic magician, possibly an elf. However, I'm open to making revisions if other options end up being more appealing. I tend towards a balance of power-gaming and deep, story-driven character design, though I abhor obviously sub-par mechanical choices (Dwarf Paladin with a CHA of 9). My group follows this tack as well.

Assuming my GM is amenable, are there any other books with material that would be useful to me, and to the group in general?

A few specific questions:

I've have read in several places that dice pools can easily get to 20 at char-gen. I'm assuming cyber/bio ware is involved and various creative applications of mods on weapons, but are there any stand-outs?

As I was reading the Runner's Companion, I noted that Shapeshifters start with Regeneration. Regen says it doesn't regenerate magic damage; does drain damage from casting count as magic damage for this purpose? I've looked around, but haven't found an official, or unofficial, ruling on that bit of minutiae.

Thanks.

[Ravor]

Don't be afraid of burning magic with choice implants, especially cybereyes.

[Glyph]

High dice pools are not something you have to try too hard to get, really. They can result from simple logical choices at character generation, but be careful. Shadowrun character generation discourages starting out maxed out in an area by making it expensive to get that very last point. A Magic of 5, very serviceable, costs 40 build points, but getting a Magic of 6 costs 65 points. So you are better off doing what is referred to as "soft-maxing", or getting your ability as high as it can get before reaching the point of diminishing returns.

An example of soft-maxing would be: Magic: 5, the spellcasting skill: 6 with a specialization in combat spells for 2 more dice, a mentor spirit that gives +2 to combat spells, and a power focus of rating: 2. Such a mage would toss 17 dice for combat spells, and 13 dice for other spells. Note that while soft-maxed, this guy is still someone who has chosen to specialize in an area - which is not bad, because the game, statistically at any rate, rewards specialists.

An example of hard-maxing would be: Magic: 6, the spellcasting skill: 7 (buying the Aptitude quality to be able to do this) with a specialization in combat spells for 2 more dice, a mentor spirit that gives +2 to combat spells, and a combat spell focus of rating: 3. Such a mage would toss 20 dice for combat spells, and 13 dice for other spells, and cost a whopping 43 points more than the previous example. Not really worth it for those few extra dice, in my opinion.

[Totentanz]

Thanks to both you for the replies.

Implants: I noticed in reading the book that magic seemed, over the long haul, to be short on monetary investment and long on the Karma. I put that together with the deltaware implants and the interesting system they use to calculate Essence loss from cyber and bio ware combined and figured I could get away with some implants. I was thinking about topping out at about 1 Essence loss. Is that kinda standard or are there other factors?

Dice Pools: Wow. That really puts it in perspective for me. I was already shying away from the "hard" maxing simply because the increased cost is so large compared to the rest. To what degree does a magician need to invest in drain resistance to offset the ability to fire off all those Force 5 spells? I was considering buying both the conjuring and spellcasting groups because the cost savings over the long haul is considerable. But, I'm not sure how much mileage I will get out of Ritual Spellcasting and, to a lesser extent, Binding.

[CanadianWolverin...]

Implants: I noticed in reading the book that magic seemed, over the long haul, to be short on monetary investment and long on the Karma. I put that together with the deltaware implants and the interesting system they use to calculate Essence loss from cyber and bio ware combined and figured I could get away with some implants. I was thinking about topping out at about 1 Essence loss. Is that kinda standard or are there other factors?

I am new to SR as well, so take what I have with a grain of salt, but if I am not mistaken, the limiting factor of that cyberware is going to be that even if you drop your essence by only 0.1 out of your 6 Essence, you must lose a point of magic. So from that perspective might as well go for dropping a whole one point of essence at that if you are going to go for it - even if you don't go to your expensive (BP-wise) max 6 Magic, you still have to drop that one point of magic, so a 5 becomes 4 and 4 becomes 3 and so on, and your maximum drops too if I am not mistaken.

Then there is cost of the cyberware. Cost pretty much puts bioware out of reach if I am not mistaken (iianm), when the max a character can have of Nuyen (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) at Character Generation is 1 BP = 5000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) to a max of 50 BP, so max of 250000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) .

Next up is availability, which can be a max of 12 at Character Generation, so some of the cyberware/bioware with its various mods won't be available at Char Gen. And those ®estricted and (F)orbidden letters can make you character's game a whole lot harder too if the GM decides to play up that aspect of the SR setting.

I think that is about it, with the really cool part about it being it is nuyen possible, rather than the slower building resource of karma. Hehe, again, iianm. From one SR newbie to another, hope this helps (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Totentanz]

Yeah, that is pretty much my take, too. If you are going to lose any Essence, might as well go all the way to a full point, because it will still cost you 1 Magic. When I was talking about Cyber and Bio ware, I was thinking long-term development. Since a mage isn't blowing as much money as his buddies on pretty toys, he can sink it into getting high quality (deltaware) chrome so he can get the most oomph out of that 1 Essence. I could, of course, be reading it wrong.

Starting out, I'm not sure If I will go with implants.

[thelovedr]

Im fairly new to 4th ed in Shadowrun, but I play mages almost exclusively. If you are looking at taking cyber/bio go for a cerebral booster (for drain) and some decked out cyber eyes. I also add a platelet factory because it auto reduces physical damage by one box, and I love to over cast. I usually buy it used because it is cheaper in char-gen. It costs a little more essence but you can always replace it later with better stuff. NOTE: Once the essence is gone you never get it back. I just add more cyber to fill the essence deficit.

Another thing is, I always bind my focuses in char-gen. Its stupid expensive karma wise later, especially as mages we are always strapped for karma.

When you get him/her written up, post him here if you want to make sure you didnt miss anything.

[Stahlseele]

One point of Essence loss from Implants is more or less the norm for most Mages.
Personally, i tend to get implants that will either help the mage stay alive, or that let me save karma from skills and attribute raises so i can put that karma into the magics part.
The first one is not all that good for the long run, only that it actually allows you to GET to the point of having a long running character.
The second one would be more for the long run, because mages become pretty deep karma sinks sooner than later. But going this route might mean your character doesn't even get to stay alive for long enough to actually be a long running character.
As allways with this decision, there's the question of:"Power NOW! or Power LATER?"

[Medicineman]

Hello Totentanz
If you opt to loose 1 Pt Essence for 'ware for the Sake of Min/Maxing you might have a look at Cerebral Booster to rais your LOG (if you play a Hermetic or a mage with LOG as a drain Attribute)
or Traumadamper that help You coping with Drain damage.

First, are there any good general introduction/advice threads I should read on building and outfitting a character?
Shure there are,but You should better look for Yourself (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I've have read in several places that dice pools can easily get to 20 at char-gen

Its quite possible but not necesserarily so.
a Spellcastingpool of 12-15 is quite Formidable for a beginning Mage
And a charismatic ,logical Elf can also get that much for a Draining Pool ,even without Hardmaxing

I noted that Shapeshifters start with Regeneration. Regen says it doesn't regenerate magic damage;

No Drain Damage, But be Careful if You want to Play a Shapeshifter.They're different in SR than in D&D .In SR they're Animals!Smart Animals,but Animals nonetheless !
And a lot of People consider it Powergaming playing a Shapeshifter solely for the Purpose of having a regenerating Charackter

he who dances with Wolves
Medicineman

[Totentanz]

Thanks for all the responses!

Does the Cerebral Booster just bring the hermetic up to on par with the Cha-based casters in terms of drain or does it become superior? I guess a rating 3 booster would give a "base" of 4, passing up the Elf, but that is a fairly hefty investment.

Medicineman:

I wouldn't have considered playing a shifter unless my GM had cleared it, and he has. I've read the whole "smart animal" thing in the book, so I get it. I had a pretty cool backstory for an eagle shifter, but I'm not sure I want to go that route. I'm glad Regen doesn't apply against Drain, because that would (seem) to be broken from this angle.

Stahlseele:

In terms of survival, what 'ware stands out? Thelovedr mentioned cybereyes, and I have read elsewhere on the forums people consider them important, if not vital.


Just from reading the book, I figured that mages can't cast spells for everything. They need non-magical skills.

[Medicineman]

I don't think that Cybereyes are THAT important,because you can have the same Gimmicks (Lowlight Vision,Smartlink,Vision enhancement,etc) in Contact Lenses,Glasses,Googles, etc. Only the Eyeball Drone is a special Cybereye Gimmick(but you can't cast Spells through it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) )
I don't understand your Cerebral Booster Quastion.Can You rephrase it ?

They need non-magical skills.
Sure they Do ! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Spells & Spirits are important but not everything
I'd opt for Perception, at least on Melee and one Firearms Skill and Etiquette Skill

with a dance at Dawn
Medicineman

[Stahlseele]

Stahlseele:

In terms of survival, what 'ware stands out? Thelovedr mentioned cybereyes, and I have read elsewhere on the forums people consider them important, if not vital.

SR4?
Ini-Passes are KING.
Otherwise, Synthacardium, maybe built in Armor. Of course the Yes too. in the World of SR "i can't see you so you can't see me" is about as wrong as it comes ^^

[Octopiii]

Magicians, quick and dirty:

The "magic" skillgroups are not that good to be honest. Banishing and Ritual Spellcasting are rarely used in practice, leaving you with only 2 usable skills in each group, which does not save you any BP. Plus, you are going to want Spellcasting and/or Summoning higher than 4 and specialized sooner rather than later: these are your bread and butter skills.

Money: You actually do not have as much money to "burn" as you would think. New spells cost nuyen post char-gen. Foci are extremely useful and hideously expensive. Binding can be very powerful and also costs money.

Skills: Astral Combat is of minor use: it is often better to just stunbolt your opponents on the astral; this skill only comes in handy when defending on the astral. Banishing has the same problem, except it doesn't have a defensive use and the drain is nasty for using it. Just stunbolt spirits. Assensing: If you take a good look at the Assensing table to see what info you can learn, you will realize that Assensing is a minor skill. People will disagree with me, but I think Assensing 1 (Aura Reading 3) is fine. Don't forget Perception: your spells are LOS, so you need to be able to see targets. A Logic tradition mage is going to want to pick up First Aid (usefull for healing drain); Cha traditions the Influence group.

Augmentation: My rule of thumb is to get things that save you on BP, or have a dynamite effect on your character you can't get with a spell. Synaptic Boosters are popular on this board, but I think a sustained Improved Reflexes spell is far superior. Good options: Cerebral Booster for logic traditions; Pain Editor makes drain laughable; Reaction Enhancers are extremely useful for keeping your mage alive; as are Platelet Factories. Skin Pocket is good for keeping your foci on you at all times. I find Cybereyes highly overrated for mages, especially metahuman mages.

Foci: Power Foci is almost a must. It adds to almost everything you do. Sustaining Foci are very useful; a Level 3 sustaining foci will allow you to sustain Improved Reflexes at Force 3, giving you +3 ini and + 2 initative passes.

Spells: Rule of thumb: get spells that do what you can't do easier mundanely. The only exception is direct combat spells, which are just stupidly effective.

[Totentanz]

Medicineman:

I was asking if the existence of Cerebral Booster ultimately made Logic traditions more attractive from a pure power standpoint. One of the reasons I went towards Black Magic was it was a Charisma-based Tradition that was less "nature-y."

On Skills, I was thinking Automatics, Perception, Blades or Unarmed, Dodge, and maybe Running. I miss any other "must haves?" I might get saddled playing face, in which case Negotiation becomes a must.

Stahlseele:

What is the benefit of having ware for Ini-passes when I can buy and bond a sustaining focus? I know the focus shows on the Astral, and issues pop up with wards, but other than that, is it worth the ware over the focus?
I can see the benefits of Synthacardium and armor, but not sure if I want to suffer the Essence for the armor.

Octopiii:

Good point on the Tradition-based skills. I was planning on taking Assensing and Astral Combat at low levels to start. I was planning on buying a low-level power focus, simply because the bonus applies to damn near everything.

Thanks, all. My GM is allowing the BP or the karmagen method, and I was thinking Karma. I'll work something up and post it here and let everything tear it up. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Stahlseele]

No Karma Cost. More or less impossible to detect AT ALL. Impossible to keep you from using it. Background count makes short work of low power spells and focus work
Focus can be addictive by the way. for Armor, i would go with Adept Armor. that one is the best you can get. Mystical Armor.
1 Ballistic/Impact per level. Dunno if it works on the Astral too.

[Orcus Blackweath...]

As I see it, your best bet is to either go pure (no essence loss at all), or go with a small amount of ware. I like the genetic mods and cyberware myself. Since you cannot get Deltaware at character creation (barring some special house rule) you will be stuck with the cheap, high essence versions. Plan to have higher grade ware put in later if you go that route.

All of that said, you can use spells to give you any boost you wish, especially if you choose a health specialty. Improved stats really are very useful, and you can sustain them with a sustaining focus, or having a spirit do it for you (careful not to make the spirits too angry doing this). It all becomes a question of play style. If you want to play a burnout, you can take a bunch of ware, if you are playing an eco-freak, or a purist, don't take any. I think that the role-playing aspects are much more important than adding a die or two to your pools.

[Medicineman]

I was asking if the existence of Cerebral Booster ultimately made Logic traditions more attractive from a pure power standpoint
I honestly don't know (not even anybody who could answer thart Question)
If I'd be playing a LOG based Mage I'd also give him some LOG based Skills like First Aid,Medizine or Computer,Datasearch f.E.

What is the benefit of having ware for Ini-passes when I can buy and bond a sustaining focus?
Sustaining Fokus & Spell ist the better Idea (ImO) 'cause you'll be keeping your precious Essence

I can see the benefits of Synthacardium
It's a Trap because the Bonus is only for Athletics,not for Melee or throwing
(one of the few(or not so Few anymore if you Include HMMVV) things they "messed up" in SR4)

HokaHey
Medicienman

[Cardul]

Cybereyes I find are good for a Mage because of the fact that, since you paid essence for them, you get to use
the benefits of them..Meaning: they see through standard invisibility(they are a technological item), and you can
even set little AR filtes to block your team-mates out of your LoS(if you cannot see your team mate, they cannot be effected by direct AoE Combat spells, and, of course, you can use vision enhancement and magnification in your cyber eyes, AND, the fun part: use the eyes to record for Ritual Sorcery.

And, of course, my favourite part is: always get a smartlink..because, yes, spells are good, but spells+ a gun are always the smart way to go...

[Ravor]

Medicineman the only problem is that if you get your vision enhancements through a device that you haven't paid for with Essence you can not use it to throw your mojo around and are thus relatively easy to shut down.

A few other points that come to mind;

It's been mentioned, but always save room in your Essence Budget for a Pain Editior, just be careful not to go overboard because drain still adds up.

Make sure that you ask your DM about his/her additude towards foci addiction before you make your character, trust me, it's very important.

And yeah, "average" Magic Burn tends towards 1-2 points of Magic.

Ask your DM what would happen if you got the "treatment" that makes cyber cheaper on Essence, then ripped and reimplanted all of your cyber, would he allow you to get the discount?

[Medicineman]

Medicineman the only problem is that if you get your vision enhancements through a device that you haven't paid for with Essence you can not use it to throw your mojo around and are thus relatively easy to shut down.

than you switch to Astral sight and Manablast your Foes (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
You are right ,but there are Ways to solve those Problems

with an Astral Dance
Medicineman

[Ravor]

Sure, as long as the corp hasn't take a few relatively simply steps to jack up your Astral Vision as well, and if you are willing to risk becoming dual natured where the majority of your team can't help you.

[DoomFrog]

Also I think you still take the -2 penalty when casting a spell on a non-duel natured or astral target when using Astral Perception.

Toten-
If you are going to take 'ware you might want to make sure it makes sense with your character. If you are shifter shaman.... you aren't very likely to have gone to a store picked up some off the shelf 'ware then go to the local doc and gotten it installed. Also don't plan on getting Deltaware until far into the game. Deltaware is basically specifically grown/built for you by a team of highly specialized doctors and then implanted by a team of world class surgens. Your best bet for min/maxing your 'war is to go with .75 of bio or cyber and .5 of the other. The lower of the two only applies 1/2 the cost to your essence.

Personally I think Synthacardium is overrated unless you really want to be exploitive and take Gymnastics as your ranged dodge skill.

Increase Reflexes (spell) is the easiest way for a mage to get extra IP. Next would be Alphaware Synaptic Boosters (there goes all your starting cash). Followed by Wired Reflexes.

If you are going to go with 'ware might want to ask your GM about using some of the positive qualities from Augmentation.

As for LOG or CHA being better..... well it comes down to the same choice as most everything in SR. Do you want to spend BP/Karma or Nuyen/Essence? Logic your soft caps are going to be 5 (unless you are a crazy race like an infected or critter), but you can buy Cerebral Boosters. Cha your soft cap is 7 as an elf (or some other crazy races) but you won't be able to use 'ware to raise it to help you. Or you could use Street Magic and be a tradition that uses INT, which soft caps at 5 for almost everyone and can't be raised with 'ware and isn't a horribly useful attribute.

But then again you could always just pick the Attribute you want and use the quality Focused Concentration to increase your drain DP, at the same BP cost as an attribute point.

When it comes down to it. The best advice you are going to get using these forums is if you tell people what you want and ask for help to do it. Asking what is best is going to get you a lot of opinions and a little help.

But some real tips:

Take a 4 BOD and get a lined coat and a Form-Fitting Body Armor Half suit. That comes out to 10/5. If you go 3 BOD you options are 6/4 or 8/1.

Plan ahead. Figure out a plan for your characters magical career. Are you going to focus on spell casting? Are you going to have an army of spirits? Are you going to have a couple spells in your back pocket but mostly do nonmagical things? When/if you initiate and what metamagics you take are going to effect your character the most if you are an awakened character.

Make sure to pick a contact who can train you and help you in magic at Chargen.

[Totentanz]

So, the group and I got together last night and worked on characters. We have a nifty joint backstory that gives our characters some history and gives the GM some tools to work with.

Cliff's Notes: There once was an Awakened corporate scientist whose assigned area of expertise was emerging sapience and its limits. Said scientist went nuts over the "threats" to metahumanity, and proceeded to start researching the limitations of non-metahuman sapients. Due to his connections and dirt on executives, he was fired rather than being killed etc. He sets himself up a nice little lab out in the middle of no-where and continues his cyberpunk Mengele experiments. The PC's, all prisoners of this scientist, cooperated in escaping and killing the bastard. One happened to be a shadowrunner sent by the old corp to check on his notes.

The "theme" for the characters is "freaks." One of the reasons for the characters remaining together is that most people will discriminate against, or maybe try to experiment on them again. That is pretty much set in stone, and the GM loves it. I'm sure he has several fiendish plans in mind.

My role has also been set. I'm playing a generalist mage. A friend of mine is playing an adept, or possibly a mystic adept, who is an assassin (in the classic sense). So, I'm not the only Awakened, but I'm the guy carrying most of the spells and the magic support. I'm also the Face.

As far as rules go, Karmagen and Build Points are allowed. We are using the common Cha-based bonus contact BP house rule. Additionally, characters receive Intuition/Logic and Charisma bonus BP even if using Karmagen. Primer Runners will be afforded the same luxury, of course. Personally, I'm leaning towards Karmagen, but if anybody has opinions to the contrary I'm open to changing.

So, I've got two possible directions, and that is what I need advice on. I'm definitely playing a Black Magic Magician, and I have permission to take SURGE.

First, play an eagle shapeshifter. This would give me loads of dice for resisting drain, but would make 'ware mostly useless. GM has ruled that the Regeneration critter power doesn't cover drain, which is fine by me.

Second, play an Elf, possibly a Dryad to get Glamour. My drain pool wouldn't be quite as awesome, but I can use 'ware to compensate.

The GM is okay with both ideas, and I have good, approved backstories for both of them. I'm just on the fence about which one.

[WyldKnight]

I have never had to pay for spells because I used arcana to design all my own and I am glad I did because with the sleep regulator I had a lot of time to do it. My character actually made money by teaching his spells to people or by taking custom orders from mages who didn't know arcana. He's got a nice little blackmarket spell shop. No physical location, the technomancer covers all of the secretary work. Not sure how much use you would find out of the skill but its a good way to tailor your mage if your someone like me who likes to make everything to personal preference.

[raggedhalo]

You will need Binding to make any effective use of spirits. However, a Mana Bolt spell is much more effective than the Banishing skill due to the more predictable Drain you'll incur.

Ritual Spellcasting rarely, if ever, comes up -- use a spirit with the Search power if you need to find someone, otherwise pay someone else to do whatever it is you need.