Is the matrix getting too magical?, input/discussion welcome Options

[StealthSigma]

Uh, huh. I notice you didn't DISagree with the chosen description. *grin*

Well, you gotta get those d6s shrunk in size. I believe most d6s tend to average around .75" cubed. When you start to get into the double digits rolled, unless you're using a large size cup, you begin to have problems adequately shaking the dice before tossing. .5" dice are very easy to shake up in two hands before the toss. I can shake 20 of those easily enough and I have smallish hands. On the other hand, I feel like I would be lucky to shake up 10 .75" dice at the same time.

[Kerenshara]

Well, you gotta get those d6s shrunk in size. I believe most d6s tend to average around .75" cubed. When you start to get into the double digits rolled, unless you're using a large size cup, you begin to have problems adequately shaking the dice before tossing. .5" dice are very easy to shake up in two hands before the toss. I can shake 20 of those easily enough and I have smallish hands. On the other hand, I feel like I would be lucky to shake up 10 .75" dice at the same time.

I was indulging in an intelectual exercise a month or so ago, trying to figure out the max number of dice you could get in SR4, and I wound up around 32, which is a drekload less than some of the older editions. Most of the time, you're well under 20. I will take that, thank you very much.

[StealthSigma]

I was indulging in an intelectual exercise a month or so ago, trying to figure out the max number of dice you could get in SR4, and I wound up around 32, which is a drekload less than some of the older editions. Most of the time, you're well under 20. I will take that, thank you very much.

We have 2 character with combat dice pools of around 18-19, I reckon I have enough of these dice to split it 4 ways ~18 apiece, and have people have enough dice.

[Warlordtheft]

Most dice I ever rolled in SR2 was 64 dice for a queen spirit attacking in melee.

Most dicepools in SR4 I've seen are less than 12. Though many PC's specializations are in the mid teens.

Back OT-I think that the wireless realeased the multitude of AI's. THe X factor got alot more prevalent because of it. Not that the AAAs didn't create any of the three original AI's. They just happened. This leads me to theorize that AI's are a product of randome simsense signals that come from a users subconcious and logic programming mixing in the background of the matrix.

As for technomancers-well yeah they are magic like, but restricted to the matrix. It is a nice twist, and may be a surge mutation or just a side effect of the mana level.

[AllTheNothing]

Personaly I think that the whole matrix is "magic applaied to computers", VR doesn't make sense for the most part (form the inefficient interface that it is for most porpouses to the utter non-sense that UV nodes are); resonance and its related oddities are not compatible with the rigid matematics that microprocessors are based on; the code is a sequence of values which are interpreted by the machine to estrapolate the meaning (that sequence is the vale of a variable? memory address? a set of instructions?), it could mean anything (or nothing), how can a brain know which simbol means what and how to process it?
The matrix in ShadowRun was inspired by Neuromancer, but seriously we're no more in the '80s when most of people hadn't a PC, and some things that looked good in the 1st ed are downright silly now..... at least it my point of view.

[StealthSigma]

Back OT-I think that the wireless realeased the multitude of AI's. THe X factor got alot more prevalent because of it. Not that the AAAs didn't create any of the three original AI's. They just happened. This leads me to theorize that AI's are a product of randome simsense signals that come from a users subconcious and logic programming mixing in the background of the matrix.

Well, Morgan came about due to interact with Dodger. Deus was built by Renraku by scavenging from Morgan. Mirage reached sentience through the members of Echo Mirage. The thing is that the AIs require UV hosts to even manifest regardless of any interference from metahuman minds. This is why I think most of these digital intelligences bother me. AIs required UV hosts to operate or even emerge, yet there's all these digital images which can apparently simulate metahuman intelligence without that level of power.

[hobgoblin]

As for technomancers-well yeah they are magic like, but restricted to the matrix. It is a nice twist, and may be a surge mutation or just a side effect of the mana level.

or could be totally unrelated to magic at all...

[Kerenshara]

or could be totally unrelated to magic at all...

Ah, but then why are MAGic and RESonance mutually exclusive if they aren't the opposite side of the exact same coin?

[BlueMax]

Ah, but then why are MAGic and RESonance mutually exclusive if they aren't the opposite side of the exact same coin?

Game Balance?
Remember pre trodes when mages couldn't hack?

BlueMax

[hobgoblin]

Ah, but then why are MAGic and RESonance mutually exclusive if they aren't the opposite side of the exact same coin?

thats for the highly payed docs to find out, and for the runners to liberate ones discovered (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Kerenshara]

thats for the highly payed docs to find out, and for the runners to liberate ones discovered (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

-.-

Not funny.

[knasser]

Oh Ghost, the frickin' energies thing...its a horrible cop-out, it really is, and I hate it. People write "strange energies" and they sound people in the 1930s with their "Z-Rays" and crap, it annoys me. We did introduce the idea of biological formations in TMs that explain the biological radio bit a little bit.

I appreciate some of you trying. But I view it as merely a heroic effort I'm afraid. But as regards:

T'be fair, yon ancient cyberpunk is just as likely to take it up the rear from script kiddies these days. Sad but true.

this is true. And by a strange coincidence, its one of the few other things that I've house-ruled. Although as it eventually appeared in Unwired as an optional rule, I suppose it may not count as such any more. Still...

Orissa Network, entirely unconnected with the Matrix and technomancer phenomenon so far, and I sincerely hope it remains that way.

That was it. I don't have SoA so I don't know much about it. I just recalled someone drawing parallels with it and the Matrix, or suggesting that the Matrix had existed before, and I thought that it was in Shadowtalk in one of the books. Or I may well be getting confused. Wasn't there some talk about JackB'Nimble being something from a previous age? I never played 3rd (went 1st->2nd->4th) so I'm often hazy on some of the material from that period. Wasn't it referenced in Dunklezahn's will, or something? And JackB'Nimble was tied to the whole Matrix Ghosts thing, wasn't it? Thus being one of the earliest instances in canon of "Magicy Matrix".

[Malachi]

Boy, it's a good thing Frank's rules aren't cannon if people are complaining about this:

"Mage, you sustain your Mind Control spell and provide Counterspelling! Hacker, you sustain your Mind Control program and provide Signal Defense! Wait... do we really need both of you guys?"

[LurkerOutThere]

I would just like to say I read everything in Knasser's portion and agree with it. Although with the caveat that the technomancers who need to worry no more aobut being distrusted and feared then the Otaku did. Either way their carrying a lot of baggage for potentially being agents of what caused the crash.

[shuya]

Ah, but then why are MAGic and RESonance mutually exclusive if they aren't the opposite side of the exact same coin?

that seems like an exaggerated leap of logic. the expression of magic and resonance and their relations to mitigating environmental factors doesn't seem as simple as the mutual exclusivity of a dominant/recessive genetic trait

resonance and its related oddities are not compatible with the rigid matematics that microprocessors are based on; the code is a sequence of values which are interpreted by the machine to estrapolate the meaning (that sequence is the vale of a variable? memory address? a set of instructions?), it could mean anything (or nothing), how can a brain know which simbol means what and how to process it?

wait, why not? do you REALLY believe that a brain isn't capable of creating meaning out of a string of symbols? because i, and the words that i am writing this post with, would argue to the ends of the earth otherwise. if people can write machine code, they would have to by necessity be able to understand it, wouldn't they?

[Stahlseele]

i know certain freaks that may not really be able to actually READ it, but they are able to understand both binary and hexadecimal . . not able to give out word by word translation, but more or less able to get the general gist and meaning of something . . just from looking at it . . yes, i call them freaks, and i feel i am allowed to do so, because they are buddies of mine <.<

[cREbralFIX]

Shadowrun is clearly moving into Earthdawn territory.

TM's are simply an expression of the "Magic as Technology" theme prevalent in Earthdawn.

I'm not really excited about going down the road of Earthdawn. It'll probably make for a good story, but...it's not SR. It's already been done and SR needs to keep moving into new areas.

I prefer more of a techno-punk world with magic being less prevalent. I like to make mages more rare, which increases their value. I'd rather see a higher percentage of Hackers over magically active characters in a story.

To address Resonance versus Magic: they'll merge together. It's clear the developers are going that route. I can certainly see a time where the "Haves" are those magically active people who can interact with technology. Nothing like a Mark 17 Blaster in the 30 gigawatt range powered by mana! Need that blaster to shoot ice? No problem! The power cells will amplify the magical effect, acting like a Magic 12 instead of your PC's 5. Anyhow, this coincides with Earthdawn's Theran empire where elven mages ruled the enslaved masses.

But, that won't happen in my game. I'll just back off on that in favor of a more techno-punk story.

[Cthulhudreams]

Boy, it's a good thing Frank's rules aren't cannon if people are complaining about this:

"Mage, you sustain your Mind Control spell and provide Counterspelling! Hacker, you sustain your Mind Control program and provide Signal Defense! Wait... do we really need both of you guys?"

He doesn't have a mind control spell. He's actually been pretty effective at putting them into two different capability areas - the best hacker abilitys under his rules are infomational ones. They are fast and awesome.

Other than detect bullshit life which is the most bullshit overpowered spell in the entire game, most of a mages infomational spells are pretty medicore.

Detect life really is total bullshit though.

[Earlydawn]

On my end, an enthusiastic YES!

What I liked about my original impression of the game was how the three versions of the world simultaneously inter-mixed, but yet, were totally different from one another. Decking is all about surviving in a system of rules. Magic is all about taking natural law and breaking it. I intensely dislike the way Technomancers work, and I think that they should have a fundamentally different way of hacking. I like AIs, since it's cyberpunk, but sprites are a little too weird for me.

[McAllister]

He doesn't have a mind control spell. He's actually been pretty effective at putting them into two different capability areas - the best hacker abilitys under his rules are infomational ones. They are fast and awesome.

Other than detect bullshit life which is the most bullshit overpowered spell in the entire game, most of a mages infomational spells are pretty medicore.

Detect life really is total bullshit though.

Been awhile since I sat at my computer laughing like that, Dreams. That cracked me up. I just liked how you skirted around calling it bullshit for a bit, and then just went for it.

[BlueMax]

On my end, an enthusiastic YES!

What I liked about my original impression of the game was how the three versions of the world simultaneously inter-mixed, but yet, were totally different from one another. Decking is all about surviving in a system of rules. Magic is all about taking natural law and breaking it. I intensely dislike the way Technomancers work, and I think that they should have a fundamentally different way of hacking. I like AIs, since it's cyberpunk, but sprites are a little too weird for me.

I thought Shadorun was Future Fantasy, and that CyberPunk was cyberpunk.

BlueMax

[Kerenshara]

He doesn't have a mind control spell. He's actually been pretty effective at putting them into two different capability areas - the best hacker abilitys under his rules are infomational ones. They are fast and awesome.

Other than detect bullshit life which is the most bullshit overpowered spell in the entire game, most of a mages infomational spells are pretty medicore.

Detect life really is total bullshit though.

Analyze Truth, somewhat useful.
Detect Enemies, INCREDIBLY useful, especially in poor visibility.
Detect Life, at high force levels is ugly. but, as they say: "Don't hate me 'cause I'm beautiful!"
Mind Probe, INCREDIBLY useful.
Diagnose, is your mage also your team medic?
Catalog, you can't come up with a use for this? Um, paydata while the decker does their thing?
Spatial Sense - Extended, combined with Detect Life, who needs penetrating radar?
Area Thought Recognition, "have you seen this person?" without people running or roughing you up.
Translate, occasionally VERY handy, wouldn't you say?

If your team mage isn't your Swiss Army Knife, what are they, a mobile semi-stealthy artillery unit? If I had to pick two "types" of magic for a totem I pulled out of my hoop just based on my idea of Crunch-n-Munch? Detection and Manipulation, hands down.

[the_real_elwood]

Well, Morgan came about due to interact with Dodger. Deus was built by Renraku by scavenging from Morgan. Mirage reached sentience through the members of Echo Mirage. The thing is that the AIs require UV hosts to even manifest regardless of any interference from metahuman minds. This is why I think most of these digital intelligences bother me. AIs required UV hosts to operate or even emerge, yet there's all these digital images which can apparently simulate metahuman intelligence without that level of power.

Deus didn't even come about solely by scavenging bits of code from Morgan. Deus because self-aware because of what it viewed of as betrayal by the Renraku CEO from the installation of the kill codes. And I agree with the displeasure at the prevalence of AI's in SR4. I know the power levels are nowhere near what Deus, Megaera, and Mirage were at in SR3, and have been nerfed to be equivalent as a player character, but dammit if the old AI's didn't feel special. Deus and the Renraku arcology were legitimately scary, and the other AI's were capable of leaving a PC awestruck. I liked that little bit of wonder, and I'm kind of sad that it's gone now.

[BlueMax]

Deus didn't even come about solely by scavenging bits of code from Morgan. Deus because self-aware because of what it viewed of as betrayal by the Renraku CEO from the installation of the kill codes. And I agree with the displeasure at the prevalence of AI's in SR4. I know the power levels are nowhere near what Deus, Megaera, and Mirage were at in SR3, and have been nerfed to be equivalent as a player character, but dammit if the old AI's didn't feel special. Deus and the Renraku arcology were legitimately scary, and the other AI's were capable of leaving a PC awestruck. I liked that little bit of wonder, and I'm kind of sad that it's gone now.

I can agree that in 4th Edition many things are no longer as awe inspiring as they once were. AIs, juggernauts, vampires...

BlueMax

[the_real_elwood]

I appreciate some of you trying. But I view it as merely a heroic effort I'm afraid. But as regards:


this is true. And by a strange coincidence, its one of the few other things that I've house-ruled. Although as it eventually appeared in Unwired as an optional rule, I suppose it may not count as such any more. Still...



That was it. I don't have SoA so I don't know much about it. I just recalled someone drawing parallels with it and the Matrix, or suggesting that the Matrix had existed before, and I thought that it was in Shadowtalk in one of the books. Or I may well be getting confused. Wasn't there some talk about JackB'Nimble being something from a previous age? I never played 3rd (went 1st->2nd->4th) so I'm often hazy on some of the material from that period. Wasn't it referenced in Dunklezahn's will, or something? And JackB'Nimble was tied to the whole Matrix Ghosts thing, wasn't it? Thus being one of the earliest instances in canon of "Magicy Matrix".

As far as I know, JackBNimble was only tied to whatever happened to Captain Chaos. I know there's been shadowtalk rumors of a Captain Chaos matrix ghost, but I've seen no indications as to how legitimate any of that is. I also never heard anything about JackBNimble being from a previous age. JackBNimble was willed to Captain Chaos in Dunkelzahn's will. The will said that the file had encryption that Dunkelzahn couldn't break, and that was about the gist of it. I guess I assumed that JackBNimble was some bit of data on the matrix that was maybe left there by that Saeletra person or some other similarly mysterious being. I'm not too fond of the magic-y turn that the Resonance and the Matrix on the whole has taken in the fluff, but the magic-y nature of JackBNimble never bothered me. Probably because it was only one little thing, and I always thought those mysterious little tidbits in the Shadowrun rules were pretty cool. But having that kind of flavor take over the whole matrix is kind of a buzzkill.