Is the matrix getting too magical?, input/discussion welcome Options

[Malachi]

If you re-read my post, you'll see that I talk about exactly the problem of granting status as "The Best" to Technomancers and relegating Hackers to being good all-rounders. Nobody respects that outside of the metagame constraints of a GM trying to find ways to challenge players. If you want to be the best at stealthing your way into systems, if you want to be the best at cracking encryption or breaking into guarded systems or anything else on the Matrix including Rigging, you need to be a Technomancer. That itself is the problem to me because it makes the archetypes of the hacker who knows code backwards, who understands how the Matrix is built, even the rigger who becomes one with his machine through wiring his motor-cortex direct to it, all of these archetypes - it makes them forever second place to Magic. Can you honestly tell me that you look at a world class athlete, boxer or scientist and say to yourself: "yeah, but he doesn't know how to hotwire a car".

I'm still not with you on this point. Shadowrunners are not "pure" athletes, boxers, or scientists. They have a profession that may require them to perform a number of different tasks, each of which could be critical or literally life or death. If the TM was awesomely fast at getting the paydata from the system, but now cannot hotwire the car that the team needs to escape, then what good was getting the data?

That's basically where I'm coming from. I think if you don't have a problem with Magicky Matrix, then these arguments wont work for you, but they explain why I and I think quite a lot of other people dislike it.

Yeah, I think it comes down to the fact that I don't seem to perceive TM's as you do. I understand that mechanically they are similar to Magicians but I don't see them as "Magic" quite as you do. If the non-TM hacking rules resolved their actions in a manner analogous to Magic (such as Frank's alternate rules) would you have the same problem with them? Did you feel the same way about Otaku from previous editions?

I agree that it was very unfortunate that Emergence came as late as it did after the core SR4 book was released. I really like the book and the plotline, but it was rendered almost entirely moot because of the timing of its release. It probably would have been better to keep all of the TM rules out of the main book and put them in Emergence but I believe that putting "core" rules into supplements was something the dev team was trying to avoid in SR4. So they were really caught between a rock and a hard place with that product.

[knasser]

I'm still not with you on this point. Shadowrunners are not "pure" athletes, boxers, or scientists. They have a profession that may require them to perform a number of different tasks, each of which could be critical or literally life or death. If the TM was awesomely fast at getting the paydata from the system, but now cannot hotwire the car that the team needs to escape, then what good was getting the data?

We're talking at cross-purposes. You're talking very much from the point of view of a game with a GM engineering appropriate challenges for a party. I am only partly talking from this point of view. The other aspect, which is a large thing, is that of the world outside tonight's mission. TMs are the best, easily trouncing mundanes at anything they choose to beat them at. The point is that "Magic" has rendered mundanes a desultory second best at the most technological of games there is. I don't like that for thematic reasons and for me the argument stops there. I have reached my negative outcome. Because you don't consider this a problem, you continue past that arguing that within the context of a game, a Hacker has other advantages. You are talking about game balance, but this thread is entirely and demonstrably about flavour and fluff. The hacker as generalist may find ways to be useful to the party, but he is forever second best at hacking. And to many of us that is a big problem.

Yeah, I think it comes down to the fact that I don't seem to perceive TM's as you do. I understand that mechanically they are similar to Magicians but I don't see them as "Magic" quite as you do. If the non-TM hacking rules resolved their actions in a manner analogous to Magic (such as Frank's alternate rules) would you have the same problem with them? Did you feel the same way about Otaku from previous editions?

The similarity of rules is one of the reasons why TM's come across as Magic. But don't neglect the inability of science to explain them or claim responsibility for them, the Resonance Realms, the communication with Satellites via brain wave, the general equivalence of spirit summoning and the existence of drain. There's no way you can introduce, for example, drain to a hacker using AR without making it resemble Magic or summoning independent creatures native to the Matrix, so the question of whether making non-TM hacking rules similar to magic would diminish the Magicness of TMs is an incorrect question. You would simply lead Mundane fluff to start seeming more magic.

Otaku never came up in previous games I played, so I can't comment. But if they were introduced now I would be unlikely to like them.

I agree that it was very unfortunate that Emergence came as late as it did after the core SR4 book was released. I really like the book and the plotline, but it was rendered almost entirely moot because of the timing of its release. It probably would have been better to keep all of the TM rules out of the main book and put them in Emergence but I believe that putting "core" rules into supplements was something the dev team was trying to avoid in SR4. So they were really caught between a rock and a hard place with that product.

When I find myself caught between a rock and a hard place, I ask myself if I should be there.

Anyway, I'm happy to agree to disagree. This is a discussion on fluff, after all. I just felt compelled to go into a slightly longer answer because I felt you were misunderstanding my point at the start. Though every time you repeat an argument in a shorter form, it becomes less accurate. As you are approaching my comments from the point of view of game balance and party challenging, don't neglect my comments in the previous post about a hacker and a TM in the same party. It would not be easy to design Matrix challenges for the group in this case which didn't cause the TM to leave the Hacker looking stupid.

[Mäx]

But a TM is competing directly with the Hacker's primary focus in the same situations and is much better at it. Magic has taken the crown in the Matrix and that is very wrong to me because I don't want Magic to dominate the Matrix.

That might be a more valid point against TM:s, if actual magic didn't make the best hackers.
Even with-out TM:s magic rules the matrix, as adepts make the best hackers.

[deek]

The more I read knasser's posts, the more I agree with him...

I too have had issues with TMs, but more from a point of not wanting to learn another "subsystem". And in my first campaign, I didn't realize how closely TMs mirrored magic (I read through them for the first time about a month ago), so just removed them from the game.

I just read through Emergence a few months ago and have been teetering on introducing some of that plot to my current campaign (which is only in January of 2070 right now).

I'm still torn about opening TMs up to be players in my games. To date, I have not...although, from a player perspective, I have made a couple of them for exactly the reason knasser points out...they are way more badass in anything they want to do than a hacker. I mean, threading your stealth up above 10 basically owns anything that is in the matrix unless its another TM.

[knasser]

That might be a more valid point against TM:s, if actual magic didn't make the best hackers.
Even with-out TM:s magic rules the matrix, as adepts make the best hackers.

An Adept can make a great hacker, but at least she is (a) not awesome-sauce better, just a bit maxed out and (b) the Matrix itself doesn't become in any way magic, you just have someone who can do technological things extremely well. And ©, the mundane can do some pretty impressive things with Cyberware that it would an Adept has to compensate for with more BP and karma.

Now you're just addressing whether Magic impinges on Mundanes in Matrix usage other than with TMs, which is relevant to what I was saying about balance of Tech v. Magic, but for the reasons above (most especially b), it's much less of an issue, imo. Though people have had exactly the problem with it that you raise in the past.

K.

[the_real_elwood]

I think it's more that the current AIs really have no reason for existing. They're treated as people and no one really knows (at least from what I've read) where they've come from or how they came into existence. What sets Deus, Morgan/Megaera/Mirage apart from those AIs is that they were purely the constructs of humanity/metahumanity. Even if their existence was an accident, they still stand as the crowning achievement of technology.

Plus I think all the Halo fanboys want a reason to put a Cortana AI into their game....

How badass would it be to play a street sam with some awesome battle armor, and your own personal AI living inside to handle hacking duties.

[Technofreak]

How badass would it be to play a street sam with some awesome battle armor, and your own personal AI living inside to handle hacking duties.

That is basically what me and a friend have planned for our next game. He will be playing a Rigger, and I will be playing an AI. Together we will rule the world!

[Kerenshara]

How badass would it be to play a street sam with some awesome battle armor, and your own personal AI living inside to handle hacking duties.

Wasn't that a TV show?

I still want my AI Supercomputer in my Visa card that I can slip into a 3 1/2" floppy drive so it can hack it for me, then project a holographic avater to talk with.

[McAllister]

What's the difference between a woman and a computer?

You can slip a 3 1/2" floppy into a computer...

[Kerenshara]

What's the difference between a woman and a computer?

You can slip a 3 1/2" floppy into a computer...

I had to think about that for a minute. That's just awful.

[Stahlseele]

yeah, who in their right mind still uses these when there are things like my "thumb-drive"?
Bigger and better performance! ^^

[StealthSigma]

Wasn't that a TV show?

No, he just described Master Chief and Cortana.

[Stahlseele]

Or Ironman.

[Kerenshara]

yeah, who in their right mind still uses these when there are things like my "thumb-drive"?
Bigger and better performance! ^^

Were you going along with the bad humor (who, Stahl?! Never!) or were you actually being serious for a change?

If you were being serious... *reaches for a callendar and a sharpie*

If you were being you... *smacks with a large trout*

[Stahlseele]

That's for me to know and you know the rest ^^
also: ouch, more*snickers*

[Kerenshara]

That's for me to know and you know the rest ^^
also: ouch, more*snickers*

*Kerenshara digs through a bag in frustration*

"Riding crop... riding crop... Where's the damned riding crop? I know I put it in here somewhere..."

[Stahlseele]

*Kerenshara digs through a bag in frustration*

"Riding crop... riding crop... Where's the damned riding crop? I know I put it in here somewhere..."

"Allow me" *hands over his own*

[Kerenshara]

"Allow me" *hands over his own*

*Smirks and raises an eyebrow*

"I see... I see indeed... Is this thing rated for troll hide?"

[BlueMax]

For the life of me I cannot believe I didn't bring this up earlier.

Magic is getting to scientific for me.

its all becoming one big blend.

BlueMax

[Stahlseele]

*Smirks and raises an eyebrow*

"I see... I see indeed... Is this thing rated for troll hide?"

"Of course it is. What do you take me for. I like to at least give the Women a Chance" *shrugs*

For the life of me I cannot believe I didn't bring this up earlier.

Magic is getting to scientific for me.

its all becoming one big blend.

BlueMax

Well, what with the Corps meddling in this, even Shamans on Corp Pay-Roll, it was to be expected neh?
But that's not such a big Problem for me, with THAT i can deal . . But Matrix based spirits and critters? x.x
Did that have to happen? <.<

[LurkerOutThere]

Ok you two kindly, break it up, I'd prefer to still be able to check this forum from work.

In the spririt of that getting back to concept:

AI's as PC's in particular draw my wrath as it seems an ill concieved and ultimately unneeded nitch. Certainly more tools is better then less but it seems like we moved awefull fast into 'AI's are here and their GREEEAAAAT" AI's gained societal acceptance faster then dwarves did to put it plainly. That strikes me as wrong.

I will also say that I do not like technomancers as magic, which seems to be where they are going. I DO NOT want them to be "two sides of the same coin." "An echo of something that came before" or anything even remotely related.

Also as was a concern with the Otaku before them and Physical Adepts before them I am a bit concerned it is ultimately pointless to play a non "magical" character concept, By the high game it is pretty much pointless. Not only can "magical" characters do things better then their "tech" counterparts they can do things that tech just can't, and that seems wrong to me in a future based setting.

[Stahlseele]

Well, it WAS bound to happen sooner or later, but i would have preferred it to be in a more decker-way than in the Otaku/TechnoMancer Way.
Not every day business as usual, when suddenly AI's! *snaps fingers* like that. There should have been some more big AI's popping up from time to time.
Things like Mirage, Deus, Morgana and the others. Maybe some popping up in Europe, Asia and Africa, as opposed to somehow only in North America.
Evolving software would be a certain probability in SR, but the Computing Power did NOT make quantum leaps in the time of the 2nd Crash.

[Kerenshara]

Ok you two kindly, break it up, I'd prefer to still be able to check this forum from work.

Aw, give me a LITTLE credit, would ya? I'd like to be able to post from work. Savvy?

[siel]

AI's as PC's in particular draw my wrath as it seems an ill concieved and ultimately unneeded nitch. Certainly more tools is better then less but it seems like we moved awefull fast into 'AI's are here and their GREEEAAAAT" AI's gained societal acceptance faster then dwarves did to put it plainly. That strikes me as wrong.

Maybe people are just getting desensitized. I mean first there was magic, then dragon, then orks, dwarves, elves, then insect spirits, then SURGE and changeling, not to mention paracritters and other new changes and advances. To the point when you get to AI, people just don't care that much any more. 

Brilliant corp propaganda or media portrayal might have helped.

Well, it WAS bound to happen sooner or later, but i would have preferred it to be in a more decker-way than in the Otaku/TechnoMancer Way.
Not every day business as usual, when suddenly AI's! *snaps fingers* like that. There should have been some more big AI's popping up from time to time.
Things like Mirage, Deus, Morgana and the others. Maybe some popping up in Europe, Asia and Africa, as opposed to somehow only in North America.
Evolving software would be a certain probability in SR, but the Computing Power did NOT make quantum leaps in the time of the 2nd Crash.

Computer power did not make quantum leaps, perhaps that would explain why most of the common that have shown up are fairly weak and take compared to those before the crash.


I have been wondering. Are there still UV hosts around? Have they been removed, downscaled, or simply changed in preference of the wireless matrix with a mesh network. How does the nature of the new wireless matrix affect AI?



Are people just against the idea of weaker AI in general, or against the lack of strong AI in the canon after the crash? If it's the latter, as far as we know, they could still be around. If the option of drake as PC and existence of weaker draconic form of all sort does not affect what you think of the Great Dragon, why get bothered by weak AI?

[CodeBreaker]

Well, it WAS bound to happen sooner or later, but i would have preferred it to be in a more decker-way than in the Otaku/TechnoMancer Way.
Not every day business as usual, when suddenly AI's! *snaps fingers* like that. There should have been some more big AI's popping up from time to time.
Things like Mirage, Deus, Morgana and the others. Maybe some popping up in Europe, Asia and Africa, as opposed to somehow only in North America.
Evolving software would be a certain probability in SR, but the Computing Power did NOT make quantum leaps in the time of the 2nd Crash.

Nope, but the way the Matrix works did. And perhaps that even the slight increase in processing power was enough to prompt the Emergance of DI's. If Moore's Law is still in effect circa Crash 2.0 the increase in processing power every 18 months would still be massive. Perhaps those increases finally sparked a Technological Singularity, that the huge amounts of processing power taking place throughout the Matrix was enough to spark AI.

It is not that much of a suspense of disbelief that the levels of Self-Adaptive code that are used every day in the Sixth World might randomly create a DI. If I remember right the current estimated numbers of DIs throughout the world numbers in the thousands, about 10,000. That is also surely taking into account any recognised E-Ghosts (That from the storys about CC we can guess are created by Jack'B'Nimble). So DIs are still very rare beings, they are not something any individual is likely to ever meet.

And also, if I remember right, the three AIs that came before this new wave where just the ones that we knew about. It is hinted multiple times that the Nexus might of been home to one, and if the Nexus could hold an AI then any stupidly high level Node (One owned by a Megacorp lets say) could. For all we know the Megacorps could have even more AI's sitting in secure nodes just waiting to get out. You really think a company like Ares would let Renraku have all the fun?