Skillsofts - programs or not?, Hopefully this can be open-and-shut Options

[McAllister]

Good e'en.

Here's my thought process. "The first three words under Skillsoft in the BBB are 'a skillsoft program...' therefore, since it's a program, if I can find a pirate community I can illegally DL it at 10% price, right? But wait... then I'd have to patch it. That doesn't make any sense. I don't care if my kung-fu is a year out of date, they've been working on that for centuries and it hasn't changed much. So why would I have to patch it? But if I don't, what would possibly stop me from picking them all up at 10% price? In a thread last April, Tymaeus said it was possible, and that's the only reference I've found to the issue...but my heart tells me this is exploitative and I have to pay the exorbitant price for game-balance reasons (which is fair enough, I like it when the game is balanced)."

"And for that matter, if they're programs, they have to run on my commlink, right? Good gods! I can run 10 rating 4 activesofts on my rating 5 skillwires if I give them all pluscoded-2, but my response will be terrible (and I can only make so many of them ergonomic, which is also expensive). Can I just run skillsofts off my skillwires, or should I start looking into clustering?"

[OneTrikPony]

Don't pirate Active softs or you'll find out what the orbital cow virus is.

Active Softs run on your skillwires not on your comlink. They're only stored on your comlink.

[Jaid]

yes, they are programs. presumably the updates are not to update the skillsoft information, but rather to compensate for constant updates to your skillwires operating system, as well as keeping nasty malware (which may or may not have been released into the matrix by the corp; they certainly aren't telling) from exploiting security loopholes in your activesoft's code (which is also why you actually update your skillwires at all, of course). if you don't patch the activesofts, then you run into problems with your skillwires running a lot slower, occasionally making you twitch, etc, due to all the malware that's snuck it's way into the software.

devices (such as skillwires) cannot perform generalised commlink functions outside of their intended use (specifically, from unwired page 48: "They are only able to run a single persona and can only run programs they are designed to use." i think you'd have to *really* stretch to try and argue that running activesofts was not within the design parameters of skillwires, and if i thought it needed to be proven that skillwires are designed to run activesofts, i could probably find proof in under a minute of searching the main book. in point of fact, nothing else will even run activesofts at all, so no you can't run them on your commlink (you can still give them any appropriate program options though)

[McAllister]

Good answer. Thank you, Sir Pony. Unless I miss my guess, your one trick is being succinctly helpful.

EDIT: And to you, Jaid. I mean, I reckon I COULD run an activesoft on my commlink, the same way I COULD run an autosoft on it. I just wouldn't get anywhere.

[siel]

Maybe. Just maybe. You could view your kung-fu soft 1.0 at rating 4 as just a decent collection of effective and common moves. Higher rating soft having a larger repository of moves. While storage space is cheap, getting your muscles to implement that many moves might not be. 

Without patches then, your repository of moves stay the same. While they might be of a decent size, they might not be large enough to cover every situation. Then, it's possible that Kung-fu soft 2.0 might contain moves that are specifically effective and designed to counter those in kung-fu soft 1.0, giving those with patched software an edge over those without.

A martial master can compensate by improvising. After fighting enough times against those with kung-fu soft 1.0, they might notice some exploitable pattern. With 2.0 or whatever update, it keeps the repository changing and fresh, so that it would be of enough hindrance.

Of course, this doesn't make very much sense. Nor does it apply to skills that would be mostly stagnant such as lockpicking. Just an idea.

[HappyDaze]

Yes, you can pirate skillsofts. We have a character that just picked up Knight Errant Self-Defense (provides Dodge 3 and Unarmed Combat 3) for 4,800 nuyen. Every 2 months it'll cost him just 120 nuyen to patch it. There's really no reason not to go with the pirated version.

[Zormal]

The way I view software degradation is that the corporations designed their software to corrupt in order to maximize profit. Tiny algorithms slowly eat away at the software. They might even be linked to the clock, so that copying a clean software over and over doesn't help.

Slowly the memory leaks and deoptimizing disk caches make the program slower and dumber, until the next (paid) patch fixes the leaks, and introduces two more.

Self-written software doesn't degrade in my games, though I'm toying with the idea that hacking software might be different in that regard (as security software gets updated).

[Rotbart van Dain...]

The way I view software degradation is that the corporations designed their software to corrupt in order to maximize profit. Tiny algorithms slowly eat away at the software. They might even be linked to the clock, so that copying a clean software over and over doesn't help.

That's how RAW now says it is.

But it would only make sense if there are no free patches for legitmate users and cracking the software would remove the timebombs. You know... how it is with RL software: It's only the paying users who get the tough love.

[Zormal]

I know my fluff differs from RAW. I should have stated it more clearly (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) It also changes the gameplay, as programs you write yourself don't have these problems and don't degrade.

Legitimate users get their patches from the corps as long as the copy-protection is intact. I meant that the software was paid for, not that the patches themselves would have to be purchased.

Cracking the software doesn't remove the timebombs, which are built into the core of the program. It just disables the patching process (like in RAW). You have to write your own software from scratch, if you want something that doesn't degrade. That or live with the trail of legal software.

Like I said, that's my view and definitely not RAW. But I find it holds up better in some cases, like the before-mentioned lockpicking.

Edit: And yes, it's not so believable that there are no perfect cracks that remove the degradation. But then again, RAW patches would be cracked and torrented in real life, so you have to bend a bit somewhere.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Like I said, that's my view and definitely not RAW.

Actually, that is RAW. Sadly.

[HappyDaze]

But it would only make sense if there are no free patches for legitmate users and cracking the software would remove the timebombs. You know... how it is with RL software: It's only the paying users who get the tough love.

It's also possible that the background programming of the matrix is naturally destructive to programs. This clears away old 'junk code' and means that anything desirable has to be regualrly maintained (legally or with illegal patches).

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Selfwritten and OSS programs are excempt to degradation.

[Neraph]

R4 Skillsoft (R3 Pluscode, Personalized) - 46,000.

Getting multiples in a skillsoft cluster - 36,800 each.

Running just two in a cluster technically takes no skillwire slots (R4 [R3 Plus] skill takes 1 slot, two take 2 slots, clustering removes 2 slots).

It should be noted that since they are programs, you can get freeware versions of them, as long as they do not exceed rating 4.

[Kerenshara]

Well, I'm not the world's most fluent reader of the SR4/SR4A Matrix rules, but I have been in this universe a LOOOooooong time, and here's been my observation:

If it's related to security, it needs to stay SOTA. Hackers are always learning and developing new hacks. Period. That means Operating Systems and Firewalls.

Anything related to Cybercombat. Attack, defense, etc. Same reasoning as above.

The amount of data on the Matrix continues to explode, even in 2070. That means your search algorithms need to keep evolving too, thus Data Search and so forth.

Stealth and sensors have been a running battle since man started stalking animals with a rock in his hand. SOTA.

Tactical software... ok, I can see some need, but unless it comes down to going head-to-head with a newer version, why here?

What I can't wrap my head around is skillsofts. What really needs updating? In theory, the softs themselves are a set of generalized motor instructions which the implanted 'wires actually translate into direct commands tailored to the user's actual body. Why should they possibly need updating once they're on the 'wires?

Emotisoftware, same thing. Anything that isn't security or detection/counterdetection, search or combat related, I just don't understand needing "patching" for any reason OTHER than game balance.

[McAllister]

Neraph, I ardently hope that you believe me when I say that I mean this in most admiring way possible; the reason I like to hear your take on things is that it is completely without conscience. Most people who stick dogmatically to RAW do so in order to deny players options that they see as game-breaking; an example would be a GM who forces trolls to get cyberarms with strength and body far below the character's own, just because that "+1 customization = +1 availability" rule limits starting cyberarms to mediocre stat totals. You, on the other hand, look at RAW and see the possibilities. A skillsoft is a program, and freeware programs are capped at rating 4, therefore help yourself to rating 4 skillsofts. Astral Hazing makes a domain, Geomancy can aspect a domain, therefore you can Geomance your own domain. What I admire is your attitude that the rules are there to let the players do awesome things, and game balance will (with the GM's help) survive.

Rotbart, Happy, Zormal and Siel: I don't have Unwired in front of me, but I remember that even as I read it I was confused about why programs degraded. Is it A. because the corps that wrote them built in planned obsolecence, B. because advancing SOTA renders a static program inferior with time, C. because the Matrix slowly eats any program that doesn't get regularly patched, D. all of the above or E. some other shit? Imagine I coded my own Lockpicking activesoft (if I'm even allowed to do that). A wouldn't apply to it, because I wrote it myself, B wouldn't apply to it, unless people are still innovating in mechanical locks (I think they aren't) and C wouldn't even apply to it because I'd keep it isolated from the matrix (it just lives in the skillwires and interacts with my muscles, no matrix link needed). So it really shouldn't degrade.

Siel put it best; "Of course, this doesn't make very much sense."

I'm tempted to houserule it like so; no more program degradation or open-sourced software. Freeware is capped at rating 3. Pirated software is 25% price and isn't capped, but you need to make a Software + Scan extended test and then a Software + Edit extended test (interval = one hour, threshold = program rating for both) to comb through pirated software and make sure there aren't any viruses or other malware that could compromise it (or you). Alternatively, you can steal clean (and, if you find a really nice node, SOTA or higher) programs by hacking into corp nodes, but they don't like that. Finally, to make coding your own stuff more doable, I'd let 4 hours of work count as a "day's" work, so even if it takes a month or two, you still have time to eat, sleep, run the shadows and even have a social life. Reasonable?

EDIT: Kerenshara, I agree. The balance is that you can get software cheap, low-maintainence and good (high rating): pick two. RAW, legal software is low-maintainence and good, pirated software is cheap and good, and freeware is cheap and low-maintainence. I tried to emulate that in the suggestion above, with the addition that programs stolen directly from corps are cheap (free, in fact), good AND low-maintainence; you just have to steal them.

[Neraph]

Neraph, I ardently hope that you believe me when I say that I mean this in most admiring way possible; the reason I like to hear your take on things is that it is completely without conscience. Most people who stick dogmatically to RAW do so in order to deny players options that they see as game-breaking; an example would be a GM who forces trolls to get cyberarms with strength and body far below the character's own, just because that "+1 customization = +1 availability" rule limits starting cyberarms to mediocre stat totals. You, on the other hand, look at RAW and see the possibilities. A skillsoft is a program, and freeware programs are capped at rating 4, therefore help yourself to rating 4 skillsofts. Astral Hazing makes a domain, Geomancy can aspect a domain, therefore you can Geomance your own domain. What I admire is your attitude that the rules are there to let the players do awesome things, and game balance will (with the GM's help) survive.

You are officially my third favorite person (the first being Jesus Christ, the second, my wife). I mean, think about it: if you figure out that Geomancy works agains your own Astral Hazing (or someone else's, for that matter), it's a high likelihood that some megacorp out there has already beaten you to the punch, with a CZ, no less. And I bet someone out there is coding freeware skillsofts (although with this one I wholeheartedly agree with putting program disadvantages in) in order to allow people to have the freedom to express themselves, sometimes with disasterous and lethal effect.

Besides, if the rules do not exist to allow players to do awsome things, then why do we play this game?

Rotbart, Happy, Zormal and Siel: I don't have Unwired in front of me, but I remember that even as I read it I was confused about why programs degraded. Is it A. because the corps that wrote them built in planned obsolecence, B. because advancing SOTA renders a static program inferior with time, C. because the Matrix slowly eats any program that doesn't get regularly patched, D. all of the above or E. some other shit? Imagine I coded my own Lockpicking activesoft (if I'm even allowed to do that). A wouldn't apply to it, because I wrote it myself, B wouldn't apply to it, unless people are still innovating in mechanical locks (I think they aren't) and C wouldn't even apply to it because I'd keep it isolated from the matrix (it just lives in the skillwires and interacts with my muscles, no matrix link needed). So it really shouldn't degrade.

The reason given in the text is that the programs that you're going up agains are under constant patching (IE: Firewalls recognizing new Spoof/Exploit loopholes), and, by extention, the offensive programs need to find new loopholes. I can see this working with virtually every program.

Siel put it best; "Of course, this doesn't make very much sense."

I'm tempted to houserule it like so; no more program degradation or open-sourced software. Freeware is capped at rating 3. Pirated software is 25% price and isn't capped, but you need to make a Software + Scan extended test and then a Software + Edit extended test (interval = one hour, threshold = program rating for both) to comb through pirated software and make sure there aren't any viruses or other malware that could compromise it (or you). Alternatively, you can steal clean (and, if you find a really nice node, SOTA or higher) programs by hacking into corp nodes, but they don't like that. Finally, to make coding your own stuff more doable, I'd let 4 hours of work count as a "day's" work, so even if it takes a month or two, you still have time to eat, sleep, run the shadows and even have a social life. Reasonable?

EDIT: Kerenshara, I agree. The balance is that you can get software cheap, low-maintainence and good (high rating): pick two. RAW, legal software is low-maintainence and good, pirated software is cheap and good, and freeware is cheap and low-maintainence. I tried to emulate that in the suggestion above, with the addition that programs stolen directly from corps are cheap (free, in fact), good AND low-maintainence; you just have to steal them.

I find this reasonable.

[MikeTrevin]

Just because I like making things even more complicated:

Since it's a program that a Technomancer with the Biowire echo can emulate as a complex form, can a registered sprite Assist Operation the thing?

I'm leaning towards yes, but I'd like to hear other people's thoughts on this.

[LurkerOutThere]

Question for those who think pirating skill softs in the only way to go? Do you really want to trust something that can put direct control of your body to some nameless shadow community. When you buy ARES brand skillwires you know that Ares backs them with it's sterling reputation of superior products and safety. Combined with regular updates to keep your skillwires sharp when your life is on the line.

As a GM i think i'd take priated skillsofts as license to screw with my players, but to each their own.

[toolbox]

Just because I like making things even more complicated:

Since it's a program that a Technomancer with the Biowire echo can emulate as a complex form, can a registered sprite Assist Operation the thing?

I'm leaning towards yes, but I'd like to hear other people's thoughts on this.

Wow. I can't see a reason it wouldn't. That's a damn handy trick.

[Jaid]

as i said earlier, the only reason i can think of for a skillsoft to degrade is because the system it is running on is constantly upgrading it's operating system, while the skillsoft itself would not be if it was pirated. this leads to incompatibilities with the OS, which causes problems, which leads to effectively lower ratings. if you don't patch your operating system for the skillwires, then it becomes full of all kinds of security holes all over the place... known security holes. and now your skillwires are part of somebody's botnet, and every time you try to clear them out it only takes a few minutes until they've been added to somebody else's botnet. of course, you can try to keep your skillwires off the matrix entirely. in such a case, your skillwires are quite likely a very sensitive piece of cyber. i expect it incorporates a reasonably large amount of nanoware in 2070, and that said nanoware probably relies on submitting information to an external location to know what to do to maintain your cyberware, and if it doesn't, your 'ware starts to get slower (which imo is worse than the software getting slower) it doesn't need to be online 24/7, but it should come online at least fairly regularly (it would warn you, wouldn't just randomly go online in the middle of a run. well, maybe on a glitch or something). now, you probably *could* maintain an external server for your maintenance routines to check in with, but then again... it's probably a lot cheaper to just pay for a pirated patch than it is to maintain a highly specialised server designed to talk to your skillwires and tell them how to maintain themselves.

it can all make sense, you just have to think it through.

as far as assist operation, i would tend to say no. it isn't actually *your* complex form. you're just emulating it; you've taken a real, existing piece of code, and you're emulating it. in fluff terms, i would say what happens is that you make a section of code that translates the regular code into resonance code for you to be able to use. in such a case, it can't be threaded, because the resonant code involved is just a translation program, a decryption key if you feel, to let the activesoft and the biowires speak to each other; and as such you could only improve the ability to translate, not the actual program itself, and you permanently place the code into a point in the resonance realms that you can access at will (which is why you require submersion)

(note: this interpretation is not supported by any rules text i am aware of, though i really thought there was something restricting threading of emulated complex forms at least...)

assuming i was going to allow threading of the CF, however, you would have to actually know it; you couldn't have emulated it just a moment ago (unless you also paid karma to make it permanent, a process i would probably rule takes as long as quickening a spell if it came up). i would not allow someone to emulate a rating 1 activesoft and then support operations it up to rating 8 or anything like that, but i might be persuaded (after all, TMs really do need all the help in the meatworld they can get) to let a TM receive a bonus from support operation.

[Mongoose]

Question for those who think pirating skill softs in the only way to go? Do you really want to trust something that can put direct control of your body to some nameless shadow community. When you buy ARES brand skillwires you know that Ares backs them with it's sterling reputation of superior products and safety. Combined with regular updates to keep your skillwires sharp when your life is on the line.

As a GM i think i'd take priated skillsofts as license to screw with my players, but to each their own.

LOL. You know, Aztechnology sells skillsofts too. Wanna find out how good your new "Brazilain JuJitsu" Unarmed soft works against a guy in aztechnology armor who has a stun club? And what makes you think Ares is any less underhanded? You know the Ares corp effectively exists because some dude hacked the stock market, right?

At least with a hacked soft, there's a chance somebody who DOESN'T have the original creators interests at heart has looked at the code for logic bombs.

Ideally, with any program, you'd get the sorcecode and have a friendly programer look over it for said logic bombs. Ideally you'd do it yourself. But hey, how many people do that?

[EH44]

I think that allowing skillwires to be purchased via pirating is a GM call. I would tend to allow it as a logical extension of allowing programs generally to be pirated.

However, something to consider when allowing this is game balance. During character generation, it is a much more efficient use of BP to buy skillwires and skillsofts than to actually learn the skill. 16 BP for one level 4 skill compared to 16 BP in tech or about 80k nuyen. With 80k nuyen I could buy skillwires 3 (6k) and 74k worth of skill softs which works out to about 8 skills at level 3 each. If you allow players to buy pirated versions at a fraction of that price, you could conceivably have a starting character with every single skill in the book save the magical ones that you cant put in a skillwire.

Even if you don't allow pirated software at char gen, allowing it later allows skillwired individuals to improve at a much faster curve. If that is something you are cool with, then go for it. But generally, it will probably create a race to the bottom of everyone clamoring for the highest possible skillwires they can get. Of course, my characters tend to be skillwire whores so I probably shouldn't complain!

I think in some ways with what limited BP there is to go around, having a large range of mediocre skills is not a bad thing. It sucks when during char gen you feel like you cannot start off with swim or climb because there are just not enough points to go around. I suppose, like with freeware, you could always houserule that there is a maximum skill level you can pirate and have it be workable. Maybe the higher level programs simply have too much degradation built in to work without daily patching or something insane like that.

Anyway, just some food for thought.

[Ravor]

Good points, but having chipped workers just screams "cyberpunk" to me so encouraging 'wires is a good thing in my book.

Of course, I don't think it is really a good idea to have to trust a piece of code in a life or death situation.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Ideally, with any program, you'd get the sorcecode and have a friendly programer look over it for said logic bombs. Ideally you'd do it yourself. But hey, how many people do that?

That's why having the Software skill is not a waste of Karma.

And neither is the ability to hack well enogh to get source code of software from the inside of a R&D facility you just broke anyway.

[LurkerOutThere]

LOL. You know, Aztechnology sells skillsofts too. Wanna find out how good your new "Brazilain JuJitsu" Unarmed soft works against a guy in aztechnology armor who has a stun club? And what makes you think Ares is any less underhanded? You know the Ares corp effectively exists because some dude hacked the stock market, right?

At least with a hacked soft, there's a chance somebody who DOESN'T have the original creators interests at heart has looked at the code for logic bombs.

You failed your sense tongue in cheek roll (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) .

There's basically two options, not allow pirated skillsofts for game balance reasons or allow them based on logic but then deal with the headaches of a quick proliferation of high level skillsofts cheaply.