Skillsofts - programs or not?, Hopefully this can be open-and-shut Options

[Neraph]

It should be noted that FREEWARE is FREE. Sure, you can get pirated copies, but there also exists FREEWARE (that is FREE) of all software, up to a rating of 4.

So go get your Rating 4 FREEWARE Skillsofts!

EDIT: I would highly suggest using some of those bugs in such skillsofts though.

[Ravor]

Personally I would jack the ratings down on freeware.

[Zormal]

I'm with Ravor on this. I like freeware as much as the next guy, but with high ratings it easily gets a bit unbalanced.

[Neraph]

4 is high? Since when?

[Zormal]

I guess it's all relative (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I just don't see many non-hacker characters using any money on software, if they can go as high as 4 without. While realistic, it just doesn't feel really balanced... Especially with things like activesofts. I don't think I've ever even seen rating 5 skillwires.

But that's why it's an optional rule. GMs can find the 'right' way to play for their group. Your suggestion on making freeware buggy is of course another way to balance the scales.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

4 is high? Since when?

Ain't skills capped at level 6 (7 with that quality I forget right now)?
Then yeah, 4 is high.

[Neraph]

I guess it's all relative (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I just don't see many non-hacker characters using any money on software, if they can go as high as 4 without. While realistic, it just doesn't feel really balanced... Especially with things like activesofts. I don't think I've ever even seen rating 5 skillwires.

But that's why it's an optional rule. GMs can find the 'right' way to play for their group. Your suggestion on making freeware buggy is of course another way to balance the scales.

Personalized Skillwires will give you a 4+1 skill. Not really a 5, but yeah it is. Also, every month the players will have to re-download all their freeware, and you are more than welcome to say such-and-such freeware is no longer being produced/patched by the maker, and they have to re-data search a new replacement. For example, Jamella's D2 Hero Editor (once one of the best D2 character editors) has not been updated in close to 8 years.

Ain't skills capped at level 6 (7 with that quality I forget right now)?
Then yeah, 4 is high.

When we're talking about a skill of 5, program of 6, hot sim, plus additional cyberware/bioware/augmentations, it's easy to get a dicepool of roughly 26 for all Matrix actions. For an on-the-street character filling in the role, having a skill of 3 (maybe), a freeware of 4, and hot sim (if he even wants to go hot sim) barely gives him a passable dicepool.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Personalized Skillwires will give you a 4+1 skill. Not really a 5, but yeah it is. Also, every month the players will have to re-download all their freeware, and you are more than welcome to say such-and-such freeware is no longer being produced/patched by the maker, and they have to re-data search a new replacement. For example, Jamella's D2 Hero Editor (once one of the best D2 character editors) has not been updated in close to 8 years.


When we're talking about a skill of 5, program of 6, hot sim, plus additional cyberware/bioware/augmentations, it's easy to get a dicepool of roughly 26 for all Matrix actions. For an on-the-street character filling in the role, having a skill of 3 (maybe), a freeware of 4, and hot sim (if he even wants to go hot sim) barely gives him a passable dicepool.

Forgive Me but I have to do this... Passable is relative... Hackers with 12-15 Dice Pools are Highly Competent within the Fluff as presented... Can you get More Dice... Sure... Is it really necessary? Probably not...

Just my 2 Nuyen

[toolbox]

When we're talking about a skill of 5, program of 6, hot sim, plus additional cyberware/bioware/augmentations, it's easy to get a dicepool of roughly 26 for all Matrix actions. For an on-the-street character filling in the role, having a skill of 3 (maybe), a freeware of 4, and hot sim (if he even wants to go hot sim) barely gives him a passable dicepool.

You're not getting a 17-die difference in dice pool sizes based only on a 2-point difference in program rating, though; your example involves a hugely stacked deck. Take your hot-shit hacker example and swap out that rating 6 program for a rating 4 freeware version. Or (getting back to the thread topic) "a skill of 5" for "a rating 4 freeware skillsoft." Doesn't make such a big difference, does it?

Nobody's saying that someone with a huge amount of specialization in any given area won't completely outclass a dabbler. What people are saying is that a program or skill rating of 4 isn't really all that low, especially if it's free.

[EH44]

While somewhat on topic, I know how to get the target numbers for patching pirated software/skillsofts, but does anyone have a page reference for the costs of patching the software yourself (if any) or lifestyle increase/cost if you have someone else do it? Not trying to be lazy here, just feeling blind and frustrated after several reads through unwired and the main book looking for it. If someone could help, I would definitely appreciate it!

[Mäx]

However, something to consider when allowing this is game balance. During character generation, it is a much more efficient use of BP to buy skillwires and skillsofts than to actually learn the skill. 16 BP for one level 4 skill compared to 16 BP in tech or about 80k nuyen. With 80k nuyen I could buy skillwires 3 (6k) and 74k worth of skill softs which works out to about 8 skills at level 3 each.

Actually that only works out to 2 skills at rating 3(activesofts cost 10k (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) *rating now days)

It should be noted that FREEWARE is FREE. Sure, you can get pirated copies, but there also exists FREEWARE (that is FREE) of all software, up to a rating of 4.
So go get your Rating 4 FREEWARE Skillsofts!

Lucly thats only an optional rule, as allowing free versions of very expensive programs, that only go up to rating 4 anyway, is really stupid.
Why would anyone ever buy activesofts, if you can have them for free.

[LurkerOutThere]

Actually freeware in shadowrunning programs is already kind of stupid in skillsofts it's doubly silly. Shadowrun is supposedly rediculously profit why would freeware still exist? The hurdles for skillsofts, especially active softs are even higher. Presumably you'd need to know hwo to program at least enough to use a Skillware SDK and know the kill well enough to relate it, therefore devaluing the value of your ow skill, you'd need skillwires (preferably a variety of different models and rigs) to test your product. it's a bit beyond the auspices of the normal freeware outfit.

[Neraph]

Actually that only works out to 2 skills at rating 3(activesofts cost 10k (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) *rating now days)

Lucly thats only an optional rule, as allowing free versions of very expensive programs, that only go up to rating 4 anyway, is really stupid.
Why would anyone ever buy activesofts, if you can have them for free.

Freeware is not an optional rule. It is a rule in a sidebar, but not listed as optional, and therefore it is completely legal and removing it is DM fiat.

Also, you can easily get 330,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) in chargen, which works out to about 7 R4 Skillsofts (Personalized, R3 Pluscode) skills with enough cash left over to afford the rest of your gear, especially when you start Skillsoft Clustering them.

[Mäx]

Freeware is not an optional rule. It is a rule in a sidebar, but not listed as optional, and therefore it is completely legal and removing it is DM fiat.

Top of that sidebar says "optional rule:Freeware and Open Suorce Programs"

Also, you can easily get 330,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) in chargen, which works out to about 7 R4 Skillsofts (Personalized, R3 Pluscode) skills with enough cash left over to afford the rest of your gear, especially when you start Skillsoft Clustering them.

Thats depend completdly on what the said rest of the gear contains, my Sasha has ~50k (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) in guns,ammo and armor alone and ~220k (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) in ware.
Also you can't just pick a set of activesofts and claim their a cluster, you have to be able to explain for whom that particular cluster is ment for and why it contains just those skill and not some other skills.

[Neraph]

Thats depend completdly on what the said rest of the gear contains, my Sasha has ~50k (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) in guns,ammo and armor alone and ~220k (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) in ware.
Also you can't just pick a set of activesofts and claim their a cluster, you have to be able to explain for whom that particular cluster is ment for and why it contains just those skill and not some other skills.

Automatics, Perception, Dodge, and Unarmed Combat are clustered together in the "Insta-Soldier" skillsoft cluster.

[Mäx]

Automatics, Perception, Dodge, and Unarmed Combat are clustered together in the "Insta-Soldier" skillsoft cluster.

Shouldn't that contain at least some knowsofts too.

[Neraph]

Now you're simply arguing to argue. My point was you can easily affort multiple skillsofts and cluster them however you want. The only thing standing in your way is a DM that doesn't want his players to succeed.

[Ravor]

Or one that actually gives a damn about stuff making sense.

[Mäx]

Now you're simply arguing to argue. My point was you can easily affort multiple skillsofts and cluster them however you want. The only thing standing in your way is a DM that doesn't want his players to succeed.

Actually no, as the skillsoft clusters have the same rovisio that ware-suites has and that is that GM:s are encouraged to decing new one's that fit their campaing.
A GM might allow players to desing their own, but IMO those should all have a designeted clientell that their designed for and the one who desined it should be able to explain why it contains what it contains and doesn't contain anythink else.

[Falconer]

Actually program ratings over 4 had no go w/ skillwires IIRC. (rating 4 and 5 skillwires can only handle rating 4 programs just differ in capacity IIRC).

So public code is no go there. I can see it SLIGHTLY for common non-hacking tools like say edit or browser. But not for pieces of code which are more restricted in their ratings. (agents/autopilots, autosofts, skillwires were limited to rating 4 IIRC).


ESPECIALLY since in SR4a the prices for skillsofts got MASSIVELY jacked up.
Verified: BBB... activesofts rating 1-4... cost, rating X 10000. So sorry, you're not getting a 40k piece of code public domain.
Black market that works out to, 4000 cracked w/ a 500 a month lifestyle maintenance for black market. (1000 bimonthly / 2).


As far as SOTA rules... I have zero issue with them. Just do the math once, then add it to your monthly lifestyle cost (even if it's every other month, just divide by 2).

I'm not in the court of... you stole it from a corp... you get it and it's updates for free. You got the initial software for free... you don't have a support agreement (and good luck getting one). Like the matrix said... you can have 2 of the 3... pick wisely. It's all nagware in the 2070's... if you don't pay the fee... prepare to be nagged and reduced functionality. Call it planned obsolescence and a steady bottom line for the corp/programmer.

[toolbox]

Actually program ratings over 4 had no go w/ skillwires IIRC. (rating 4 and 5 skillwires can only handle rating 4 programs just differ in capacity IIRC).

So public code is no go there. I can see it SLIGHTLY for common non-hacking tools like say edit or browser. But not for pieces of code which are more restricted in their ratings. (agents/autopilots, autosofts, skillwires were limited to rating 4 IIRC).

So? Skillwires can handle up to rating 4 skillsofts. Freeware can go up to rating 4. I don't see what you're getting at here.

I mean, I agree it's ludicrous that RAW allows you to get free versions of (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 40k software, but I don't see how program ratings can be invoked to prevent it.

[Mäx]

I mean, I agree it's ludicrous that RAW allows you to get free versions of (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 40k software, but I don't see how program ratings can be invoked to prevent it.

Well it's not really RAW, it's just an optional rule and a very bad one at that.

[toolbox]

Well it's not really RAW, it's just an optional rule and a very bad one at that.

RAW = Rules As Written. It's a rule written in a sourcebook. Yes, it's an optional rule (and I sure wouldn't allow it to work how this thread has shown that it does), but that doesn't mean it's not a rule as written. RAW is nothing more than what the developers have actually published in the rulebooks (as opposed to RAI). Freeware is published in a rulebook, so.

[Neraph]

So? Skillwires can handle up to rating 4 skillsofts. Freeware can go up to rating 4. I don't see what you're getting at here.

I mean, I agree it's ludicrous that RAW allows you to get free versions of (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 40k software, but I don't see how program ratings can be invoked to prevent it.

RAW = Rules As Written. It's a rule written in a sourcebook. Yes, it's an optional rule (and I sure wouldn't allow it to work how this thread has shown that it does), but that doesn't mean it's not a rule as written. RAW is nothing more than what the developers have actually published in the rulebooks (as opposed to RAI). Freeware is published in a rulebook, so.

I can tell we're going to get along just fine. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[LurkerOutThere]

I can tell your both functionally braindead and arguing through your lizard brain, i might have had a shred of respect for neraph if his response after being basically punked on freeware being an optional rule had been a laugh and an admision. Not so much. Rules as Writte means the rules, right otu of the box. To imply that Optional rules fall under that category would invite everything int he books is actually RAW. Therefore Dunkelzahn's not really dead because someone on jackpoint said so.