Spirits + Materialization, The Cake is a Lie! Options

[Neraph]

So, I was looking through the spirit powers during a game I was running yesturday, and I stumbled across this:

Materialization
Type:P * Action: Complex * Range: Self * Duration: Sustained
Certain astral critters are capable of projecting themselves into the material world, thus allowing them to interact with physical beings. When materialized, critters may affect physical targets. Additionally, materialized critters gain Immunity to Normal Weapons.

That looks fairly unassuming, yes?

But wait, look at this:

Type: Powers may either be mana (M) or physical (P), just like spells (see p. 195). Mana powers do not affect nonliving targets, whereas physical powers cannot be used in astral space or affect astral forms.

Did you catch that?

Let's go over that again. Physical spirit powers cannot be used in astral space, nor may they affect astral forms. Spirits, before materializing, are astral forms. Materialization (and, coincidentally, Posession and Inhabitation) is a physical ability.

Conclusion, based on RAW: Spirits may not use the Materialization, Posession, or Inhabitation powers, and are therefore completely and utterly unable to render aid on the material plane, and are nearly completely useless as a result.

[ Spoiler ]

Inference, based on RAI: The power works normally; forget the fact that it is a physical power.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

My inference is that the powers of Materialization, Possession and Inhabitation do not function on the Astral because when activated they shunt you to the Physical as part of their activation... You cannot be on the Physical without these powers, and as such, their use places them on the Physical by default...

Pure and Simple and in line with the Spoiler you included...

[Neraph]

My inference is that the powers of Materialization, Possession and Inhabitation do not function on the Astral because when activated they shunt you to the Physical as part of their activation... You cannot be on the Physical without these powers, and as such, their use places them on the Physical by default...

Pure and Simple and in line with the Spoiler you included...

Yes, that would be RAI. But with RAW, they cannot be activated, because in order to use them they must not be on the Astral to begin with. It's like saying "You can unlock the door to your house with the key on the coffee table." Can't happen if the door is locked.

I just found it immensly amusing that spirits are, by RAW, almost completely useless. I would have thought the designers had a little more foresight than that.

[Ragewind]

My inference is that the powers of Materialization, Possession and Inhabitation do not function on the Astral because when activated they shunt you to the Physical as part of their activation... You cannot be on the Physical without these powers, and as such, their use places them on the Physical by default...

Pure and Simple and in line with the Spoiler you included...

Too bad that is incorrect

[DireRadiant]

You are assuming astral beings do not have a component in the Physical plane until they materialize.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Too bad that is incorrect

References?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

You are assuming astral beings do not have a component in the Physical plane until they materialize.

This is true...

[Ragewind]

References?

QUOTE (SR4, page 286)
Type: Powers may either be mana (M) or physical (P), just like spells (see p. 195). Mana powers do not affect nonliving targets, whereas physical powers cannot be used in astral space or affect astral forms.

I bolded the important part since you seemed to have skipped it the first time

[Neraph]

You are assuming astral beings do not have a component in the Physical plane until they materialize.

They don't.

If a purely astral form such as a spirit or an astrally projecting magician wishes to interact with the physical plane, she must manifest. Manifesting is a psychic effect that allows an astral form to make itself visible and audible on the physical plane through an act of will. Manifesting takes a Simple Action to engage or disengage. Manifesting characters and spirits appear on the physical plane as ghostly, hazy images and may freely communicate with physical characters. Unlike the Materlialization power of spirits (p. 289), manifesting does not create a physical form, and so the character cannot physically interact with anything, nor can she be harmed by physical attacks. Because manifestation is a psychic effect, manifested characters cannot be detected, recorded, or affected by technological devices.

Emphasis added.

It should be noted that manifesting does not allow you to do anything but speak and listen to physical things.

Only mana spells affect astral forms.

And:

A spell cast on the physical plane does not draw mana from the astral, it uses mana from the physical side.

The astral and physical planes are completely separate, as far as mana is concerned. Manifesting only allows you to talk and listen to physical beings, it does not actually allow you to affect it in any way.

EDIT: It should be noted that I have no problem whatsoever with spirits acting as we all know they should. The problem is that they do not work that way by RAW, and I found that very interesting.

[McAllister]

As if I needed any more proof that RAW is a surly, unbridled horse, but Neraph rides it wherever he likes.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

QUOTE (SR4, page 286)
Type: Powers may either be mana (M) or physical (P), just like spells (see p. 195). Mana powers do not affect nonliving targets, whereas physical powers cannot be used in astral space or affect astral forms.

I bolded the important part since you seemed to have skipped it the first time

NO...I did understand that, but like Neraph stated... if they cannot be Physical without the use of the three listed abilities (Materialization, Inhabitation or POssession) then they could NEVER use these powers as they are on the Astral Plane by default and could NEVER activate their physical abilities BECAUSE THEY DO NOT WORK ON THE ASTRAL PLANE...

See... I got that they were Physical Powers...

Pretty Simple...

[Ragewind]

NO...I did understand that, but like Neraph stated... if they cannot be Physical without the use of the three listed abilities (Materialization, Inhabitation or POssession) then they could NEVER use these powers as they are on the Astral Plane by default and could NEVER activate their physical abilities BECAUSE THEY DO NOT WORK ON THE ASTRAL PLANE...

See... I got that they were Physical Powers...

Pretty Simple...

Yes it is, enjoy never using Spirits again

I guess all those threads about Spirits being overpowered are a moot point eh?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Yes it is, enjoy never using Spirits again

I guess all those threads about Spirits being overpowered are a moot point eh?

Again, you are missing the point... It is an interesting Connundrum based on the RAW...
And like I stated above... the RAI clearly implies that the activation of these powers shunts the spirit to the material as part of the activation...

[Neraph]

As if I needed any more proof that RAW is a surly, unbridled horse, but Neraph rides it wherever he likes.

You retain my third favorite person position. Solidly.

[Ragewind]

Again, you are missing the point... It is an interesting Connundrum based on the RAW...

co·nun·drum (k-nndrm)
n.
1. A riddle in which a fanciful question is answered by a pun.
2. A paradoxical, insoluble, or difficult problem; a dilemma: "the conundrum, thus far unanswered, of achieving full employment without inflation" (Arthur M. Schlesinger, Jr.)

It is FAR from a Conundrum, it is in fact, quite clear. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotate.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

co·nun·drum (k-nndrm)
n.
1. A riddle in which a fanciful question is answered by a pun.
2. A paradoxical, insoluble, or difficult problem; a dilemma: "the conundrum, thus far unanswered, of achieving full employment without inflation" (Arthur M. Schlesinger, Jr.)

It is FAR from a Conundrum, it is in fact, quite clear. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotate.gif)

Meh... Semantics... it is indeed a dilemma... the RAW is in contradiction with the RAI... Makes it kind of tough on those who go strictly by RAW (I am looking at you Toturi) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[HappyDaze]

So no Materialization, no getting shot with a projectile weapon (bow/crossbow), no...

Anymore RAW stupidity to add?

[Neraph]

Meh... Semantics... it is indeed a dilemma... the RAW is in contradiction with the RAI... Makes it kind of tough on those who go strictly by RAW (I am looking at you Toturi and Ragewind) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I fixed it for you.

[Neraph]

no getting shot with a projectile weapon (bow/crossbow), no...

What?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I fixed it for you.

Thanks Neraph... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotate.gif)

[Ragewind]

So no Materialization, no getting shot with a projectile weapon (bow/crossbow), no...

Anymore RAW stupidity to add?

I could make you have a -26 to Perception tests no matter what form of vision enhancement you use. Does that count?

I'm enjoying this thread, its making me all warm and fuzzy. I can't wait to join a group of strangers and (in a pleasing voice mind you) explain to the Summoner why he can't do anything.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

So no Materialization, no getting shot with a projectile weapon (bow/crossbow), no...

Anymore RAW stupidity to add?

It was an interesting Observation HappyDaze... Nothing more...

[Neraph]

So no Materialization, no getting shot with a projectile weapon (bow/crossbow), no...

Anymore RAW stupidity to add?

Is that a challenge? I'll go hunting.

[HappyDaze]

no getting shot with a projectile weapon (bow/crossbow), no...
What?

The Fire Weapon action is firearms specific, and Throw Weapon is specific to throwing weapons. There is no RAW action that allows an attack roll with projectile weapons (unless they are vehicle-mounted).

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The Fire Weapon action is firearms specific, and Throw Weapon is specific to throwing weapons. There is no RAW action that allows an attack roll with projectile weapons (unless they are vehicle-mounted).

Ready Weapon and then Simple Action to release... what we use anyway...