WHY can you get extra IP's in AR?, mostly a fluff question. Options Track this topic Email this topic Print this topic Download this topic Subscribe to this forum Display Modes Switch to: Outline Standard Switch to: Linear+

[OneTrikPony]

After several years of intencely spradic study I've developed this level of understanding.

With a sim module and a trode net you can get full immersion VR. This means that a trode net is effectively the same thing as a datajack it handles both Input AND Output between the brain and the machine.

So you don't need anything but a trodenet AR right?

With a trode net no other devices are needed; no dataglove, scroll wheel, contact lenses, earbuds. A trode net reads your thoughts and intents and translates them to the machine. A trodenet also progects visions sounds and feelings into your brain. So you don't need anything but a trodenet AR right?

Then How can Cyber/Bio/Adept reaction and intitiative boosters Posibly effect initiative in AR if your physical body is completely cut out of the loop???

question B; does the matrix adept have to use a dataglove to get the boost from his adept power?

Question C; if he does; does he look like the guy from Minority Report on meth in fast forward?

[edit] Oh and i just thought of another one. How does AR work for a technomancer? [/edit]

[olddogtree]

The way I've always done it is that if you have a mental connection. Meaning a datajack or trode net or whatever. You always act at the speed of thought in the matrix, AR or VR. Meaning at least three IPs, and if you access the matrix physically. You only ever get one IP. Because your fingers can only move the controls so fast.

[hobgoblin]

VR allows one to go "dream", while AR has to deal with the speeds of the real world.

[OneTrikPony]

I thought about that and i like it but i can't figure out how to make that work without turning Hackers back into Deckers.

The whole point of the Sr4 system is that Hackers get their asses out of the chair once in a while and run around with the rest of the team Right?

So how do you reconcile a guy who has initiative 6 and 1 IP in the meat world and initiative 10 and 3 ip in the matrix?

One thought was that the guy has 3 IP tottal and could chose to use any one of them for physical actions each pass reserveing the other 2 for matrix actions. But that still doesn't solve the problem of what he rolls for initiative on any given pass.

I'm sitting here tonight screwing with my very first technomancer build (yarf!) thinking about puting synaptic accelerators into him so he can get out of his chair and go on the run with the guys.

not to highjack my own thread but on a side note I really can't think of many scenarios where the hacker would actually need to be physically present on a run. Ho-Hum

[hobgoblin]

have a look at some of the echos from unwired.
specifically, biowire and acceleration or multiprocessing, overclocking, advanced overclocking and mesh reality...

[Orcus Blackweath...]

Technomancer is the only guy I know of that can have 5 passes.

[GreyBrother]

How a Technomancer perceives AR? like any other User he sees icons, overlays and so on. His own "feeds", stuff that your commlink would do, are more like impulses. Your "alarmclock" is a command to your body to wake up at the right time and so on.

And how you can be faster in AR? ^^ Well, trodenets work with speed of thought too, and you can think faster with more IPs, or type faster, manipulate the AROs with the gloves etc.

[hobgoblin]

tho i dont think there is any way he can use all of them in physical reality...

[hobgoblin]

ok, a more detailed take on AR vs VR coming now.

with AR one is distracted by all the data from the physical world, and said world is slower.

sure, you can sit back and only watch the AR, but then you could just as well slip into VR and really allow your mind to fly. And thats the thing, with VR your no longer aware of your physical body, you brain is free to process the simsense data as fast as your comlink can push it.

But with AR, the mismatched speed of the real world and the virtual world means one have to drop to real world speeds. But then one can make use of wired reflexes and similar to "speed up" the real world...

[OneTrikPony]

ok, a more detailed take on AR vs VR coming now.

with AR one is distracted by all the data from the physical world, and said world is slower.

sure, you can sit back and only watch the AR, but then you could just as well slip into VR and really allow your mind to fly. And thats the thing, with VR your no longer aware of your physical body, you brain is free to process the simsense data as fast as your comlink can push it.

But with AR, the mismatched speed of the real world and the virtual world means one have to drop to real world speeds. But then one can make use of wired reflexes and similar to "speed up" the real world...

how are wired refleses involved in the AR interface with a trode net or datajack? Theyre not. Or shouldn't be. If you're runing AR throught trodes why wave your hands around to manipulate your AR desktop and GUI? Wired reflexes don't speed up your mind they speed up your body. Your body is cut out of the loop when you're using trodes or a Jack in AR. Right?

[OneTrikPony]

Technomancer is the only guy I know of that can have 5 passes.

In VR maybe. not in AR.

[KCKitsune]

Wait, I thought only hackers could get the fifth IP because of the SimSense Booster.

[BlackJaw]

Technomancers have a few tricks for boosting their initative passes up to 5.
Hackers can get 5 passes using Sim Booster and Sim Accelerator.
Both can then bring those actions into the real world via a Drone.

I think those are the only ways to get 5 passes.

Anyways, back on topic: Trode net and other DNI interfaces let you know information via the data connection, and send information out... but it doesn't do sensory overlays in AR. That means you will still want glasses, especaily if you want that Smart Gun setup. It may or may not provide other sensory information from AR, but it isn't merged with the real world so much as just pumped in. Now pumping in information is fine for some things, but most of what you want out of AR is visual and it really needs to be overlayed onto the rest of the world. Your trode net or datajack doesn't know what your looking at, or what your grabbing with your hand, etc... Even VR doesnt' really work that way (aside from UV Nodes)... that's why Riggers get Control Rigs... so they can use the parts of their brain that handle physical movements to control drones.

In VR you are ignoring your body and controlling an avatar (that in most cases doesn't even have to be humanoid) but in AR you and both the physical world and the virtual world are intertwined. You can get information in and out of AR via a DNI, but if you want it to line up with reallity correctly you will still need glasses, gloves, etc... Otherwise the info is just all in your head. Note that Technomancers are diffrent that way. Game mechanic wise the only sense that really matters is vision. You will need cyber eyes, glasses, or something along those lines with an Image link in order to see AR overlays on the world... and you need that to get Augment reallity bonuses like from Tacnets and Smart Linked guns, Sensor Softs, etc.

[pbangarth]

how are wired refleses involved in the AR interface with a trode net or datajack? Theyre not. Or shouldn't be. If you're runing AR throught trodes why wave your hands around to manipulate your AR desktop and GUI? Wired reflexes don't speed up your mind they speed up your body. Your body is cut out of the loop when you're using trodes or a Jack in AR. Right?

SR4A, p. 219 says, "anything you can do in VR can be done in AR, and vice versa." This seems a bit overstated.

It goes on to describe Augmented Reality, telling us that it is the world we live in physically, augmented by an overlay of virtual displays. Those displays augment but do not replace the physical world, and so any attempt to make a change in the real world, even if augmented, must go at real world speeds. I can see changing an ARO at mental speeds, but affecting the object to which the ARO is attached would require interaction with the real object.

This is totally different from VR, which takes the mind into a separate world in which it works alone.

[hobgoblin]

how are wired refleses involved in the AR interface with a trode net or datajack? Theyre not. Or shouldn't be. If you're runing AR throught trodes why wave your hands around to manipulate your AR desktop and GUI? Wired reflexes don't speed up your mind they speed up your body. Your body is cut out of the loop when you're using trodes or a Jack in AR. Right?

the way i have always read wired reflexes is not that it makes one physically faster (if so, it should increase ones running speed) but that it cuts down on the reaction times on stimuli.

thats why one can get more attacks in, as one is able to more quickly react to the behavior of a gun, or the swing of a club. The body can move incredibly fast, but the mind cant keep up and make the adjustments needed. Just consider how a instinct works, one is programming the mind to react without one conscious that one is doing so. With wired reflexes, the conscious mind is operating at instinct speed, and the instincts even more so. One is basically supercharging the nervous system.

and simsense is doing the same thing. Only that as one can leave out the physical body, thanks to the RAS override, when going VR vs AR.

Maybe one could think of AR at VR speeds without wired reflexes as having to change from 1st to 5th gear over and over again in the space of a second or less.

[hobgoblin]

Anyways, back on topic: Trode net and other DNI interfaces let you know information via the data connection, and send information out... but it doesn't do sensory overlays in AR.

err, no, trodes can perfectly well do sensory overlay.

there are 4 ways to access AR:

* fondle the comlink directly
* glasses and gloves
* simsense module and trodes
* simsense module and datajack

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Or Glasses and Trodes
Or Cybereyes.

Having any kind of DNI means not needing to wave around like a junkie.

[hobgoblin]

well, cybereyes (or the imagelink cyberware) do provide a display, but it will not replace trodes, jack or gloves for input...

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Actually, they do, because they feature DNI controls. You need to be able to control the System and the Programs running on them, after all.

[hobgoblin]

DNI controls specific for the eyes, yes. not general ones that enable you to control the ar interface projected from the comlink...

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Even Peripheral Nodes support one Persona, so no, those controls enable you to use the AR Interface of the commlink.
Sure, you won't bea able to feed simsense ofer it like you would with a datajack, implanted sim module or trode net - but there is no difference controlling the System and the Programs of the cybereye and the ones on the commlink, either.

Basically, that ease of use is pretty much the only reason to get such implants in the first place.

[Aaron]

Peter Taylor once told me that the reason you can get all your passes in AR is because the technology is faster than a metahuman could ever be, so the interface can keep up with you, even if you've got four IPs.

[CanRay]

'Cause you're too busy answering your Instant Messages while you're hacking. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[hobgoblin]

Even Peripheral Nodes support one Persona

yes in unwired, no in sr4a. make of it what you will.

[Aaron]

Go with the most recently published.