SR3: Detect Individual Options

[DV8]

Detect Individual
Type: M - Target: See table. p. 192 - Duration: S - Drain: L
The subject can detect the presence of a specific individual anywhere within range of the sense. The caster names the individual when the spell is cast.

I've got some issues with this spell. Namely that it doesn't stipulate that the caster needs to know anything about the target except his name. Am I overlooking something?

[nezumi]

The individual would have to be within range of the caster's spell (which is measured in meters) and the caster needs to know his actual name. 'Mr. Johnson' doesn't work. So if you're already in the room with him and you know who he is, you can find him.

[Moirdryd]

What Nezumi said... plus I believe the TN varies according to what knoweledge or physical stuff you have on hand.

[DV8]

I find this absurdly powerful considering the player only needs to know the name of the target. Realistically, a mage could keep this spell sustained while driving through a city until he picks up his target. Hmmm, I need to house-rule this, otherwise the power of ritual tracking (which requires more than just a name) is eroded quite significantly.

[nezumi]

Yes, if your character wants to cruise up and down the entirety of the barrens, through extrateritorial areas, through the barrens, through mob turf, through the warehouse district, while maintaining his (illegal) spell, and in the process picking up EVERY person in Seattle with that name, on the assumption that he has the right name, and the character isn't behind a ward, or above the 10th floor of a building, or underground or on a boat or a helicopter, or also driving around, he may do that. If memory serves, however, it's still less potent than scrying.

[DV8]

The person he's looking for just has to be within range of the sense (sight, smell, etc.), but he doesn't necessarily have to see the target. So at the 10th floor of a building, underground, or being ambulant really isn't going to save you from being detected. Sure, it's less accurate and more of a pain than ritual tracking, but it still remains an awfully powerful spell that is ripe for abuse.

[tisoz]

I would rather have them pay for this spell than others that can be abused constantly. My PCs in tabletop games all had better things to spend karma on.

[SaintHax]

I've got some issues with this spell. Namely that it doesn't stipulate that the caster needs to know anything about the target except his name. Am I overlooking something?

Interesting... my hard copy is at home, but my PDF of the core and SR4A has the following sentence added to it:

she must know the target or have met him in the past.

[tisoz]

There ya' go, only learnable by females and only for use on males! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I keep imagining the woman holding a rolling pin weapon focus as a drunk guy comes staggering home.

[Link]

See the SR3 topic header, the 'Andy Capp' rule is for SR4A. ;)

The person he's looking for just has to be within range of the sense (sight, smell, etc.), but he doesn't necessarily have to see the target. So at the 10th floor of a building, underground, or being ambulant really isn't going to save you from being detected. Sure, it's less accurate and more of a pain than ritual tracking, but it still remains an awfully powerful spell that is ripe for abuse.

Range is Force x Magic metres and typically a building is about 4m per storey. Not to mention that in 6th world Seattle average building heights are probably much higher. With a range of 36m sweeping a city block by block would be time consuming and if your target is mobile they may move into an area already searched. A proverbial needle in a haystack. There is also a reasonable chance of resisting the spell.

[Shinobi Killfist]

See the SR3 topic header, the 'Andy Capp' rule is for SR4A.

Range is Force x Magic metres and typically a building is about 4m per storey. Not to mention that in 6th world Seattle average building heights are probably much higher. With a range of 36m sweeping a city block by block would be time consuming and if your target is mobile they may move into an area already searched. A proverbial needle in a haystack. There is also a reasonable chance of resisting the spell.

Not that it alters the argument much but you can make an extended version of all the detect spells, I think its assumed one exists for all of them that is purchasable. Forcexmagicx10 meters I think though my SR3 knowledge is a bit rusty.

[nezumi]

Like Link said, range is limited by Force * Magic - usually 36 meters. And it's a sphere, so unless you're in the lobby of the building, you're not going to sense much above the third or fourth story from the street.

Extended sense spreads it out farther. You're still not going to sense someone inside of the Aztech pyramid or the SPIRE, but you could still cover most of the city. In other words, lazy kidnappers are out of the job. And indeed, it's true, the nature of the work has changed since magic and technology came on the scene. Traditional gum shoe stories aren't going to work any more. If you house rule Detect Individual, they can still scry. House rule that, they can still canvas the city with watchers. House rule that, they can still do data searches connected to his SIN, credsticks, grid guide... It's the post-information age, dude. Catch up!

On the flip side, you're ignoring how much the world would have changed in response. How many of your PCs use their real names? How many of the PCs even know the real name of another PC? And how often has a Johnson introduced himself as Jim Graham (and that's what's actually on his birth certicate). In response to the big changes, EVERYONE:
Hides their name
Tints their windows
Keeps an eye on their personal stuff
Segregates their data

That's just the MO.


And again, keep in mind, this spell can be easily defeated by wards, and can be beaten with a successful resistance test (and, I suppose, changing one's name).

[DV8]

I confess that I forgot about the standard detection spell range and was a little thrown off by the description saying "within range of the sense" bit. On top of that, I am not in favour of anything that erodes the mysticism and mystique of magic. As soon as something becomes too accessible and too mundane it starts to irk me. In hindsight, I'm a lot mor favourable toward the spell now, due to all of you setting me straight, for which I thank you. I might still house-rule it to include the changes made in SR4, or perhaps stipulating that the caster must have seen the target's aura before.

[Machiavelli]

I never used this spell in my entire SR-carreer, because (if you follow the explanation given in the book) "Detect Life" is ways more effective. Of course it is a pain in the ass if you run in a crowd of people with it, but it is simply more flexible in use and does basically the same job (with enough sucesses). And you have to save karma or BP´s so you can´t have every stupid spell listed.^^

[Ol' Scratch]

The spell has a relatively tiny range, is specifically a Detection spell (which translates to 'supernatural sense of awesomeness'), and requires you to know the character's name. In other words, all it really does is point out who you're looking for in a crowd. It is the epitome of divination, or as you called it "the mystique of magic."

Or can you tell me how this is any less mystique-y than tossing some bones on the ground to get the answer to any random question you decide to ask (Divination metamagic)? Or how you can extend your sight to another place (Clairvoyance or Astral Perception/Projection)?

I'm just not seeing the mundane-ness of it at all. It's probably one of the coolest pure-magic spells in the game!

[Machiavelli]

That is why it is called "magic". If it would have to be mundane-like it would be called "technique", eh?^^

[DV8]

I'm just not seeing the mundane-ness of it at all. It's probably one of the coolest pure-magic spells in the game!

The spell is not mundane, but becomes mundane when it's such an easy ability to acquire. And you saying that it's "one of the coolest pure-magic spells in the game" kind of proves that point to me. I guess I could've adapted the game in such a way that this was a very rare, and highly sought after spell and that teachers charged a fortune to share the secret to this spell and in that way it was a failure on my part to not recognise how powerful this spell was when I granted it to my player. I always found that to know someone's location, it required ritual tracking and all the trappings that come along with that. Of course, that was before I realised that the range of the spell was the range of standard detection spells, and not the range of the sense (sight, sound, smell, etc.) that it claims in the spell description.

Wow, I just realised, I'm getting a disproportionate amount of flack over this.

[Ol' Scratch]

To be fair, as you mentioned, that has more to do with a lack of unique stats on individual spells (like Availability ratings) than anything else. It's just as easy to get a Cause Black Plague spell as it is to get a Treat Minor Hangover spell, to use a bit of hyperbole. The rules basically say that you should be able to by a Tactical Nuke at your local pawn shop just as easily as you buy a Streetline Special... but only when it comes to spells.

I think the flack you're assuming your getting is due largely to targeting the wrong thing. The spell is fine and pretty damn cool by itself, the means of acquiring it is what you seem to have an issue with. But to fix it you need to adjust the availablity of tons of spells. Mind Probe, Control Thoughts, Detect Life, etc. It can be a pretty big burden, which is why they probably skipped it altogether.

[Machiavelli]

I really don´t get the problem why this spell is "all so powerfull". Enlighten me please.

[nezumi]

Well in theory, let's say you got the extended sense version and a jet pack, and your job was to find Sarah Parker, who was kidnapped, you could just sustain the spell and fly around the city until she comes up, with no other footwork required. I've had one or two runs I came up with ruined because I forgot, in SR, the world is a super-information age and 'losing' stuff isn't as big of a problem as it was before. Things have to be very actively lost. A pair of disgruntled LS officers kidnapping a gang-leader's girlfriend are going to be so easy for a runner party to find, it isn't even funny. They'll finish the job in five minutes and be on their way. It's just how the world works now.

[Machiavelli]

Well in theory, let's say you got the extended sense version and a jet pack, and your job was to find Sarah Parker, who was kidnapped, you could just sustain the spell and fly around the city until she comes up, with no other footwork required. I've had one or two runs I came up with ruined because I forgot, in SR, the world is a super-information age and 'losing' stuff isn't as big of a problem as it was before. Things have to be very actively lost. A pair of disgruntled LS officers kidnapping a gang-leader's girlfriend are going to be so easy for a runner party to find, it isn't even funny. They'll finish the job in five minutes and be on their way. It's just how the world works now.

Muahahahaha....yeah, well "in theory" fits quite well. It could take some time to fly all over Seattle, because like i heard it is quite big and the spell (even in his extendes version) only lasts some hundred meters at all. But like you pointed out. We have hackers that could point you out wherever you are, why shouldn´t there be a magic solution for this problem too?

[Link]

Wow, I just realised, I'm getting a disproportionate amount of flack over this.

I'm not trying to flack with you (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) I was just pointing out that you were over estimating the spell a tad.

On a more positive note I like your SR site, it'd have to be one of the best active sites around.

[DV8]

On a more positive note I like your SR site, it'd have to be one of the best active sites around.

Why thanks!

[Link]

You should finish Mason's annotated reviews. :)

[DV8]

I've read several Shadowrun novels when I was younger. Now that I'm older, I've found I've lost the ability to stomach bad science fiction. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)