Shamans and Mages; What's the Difference these days?, Or can you use a Mentor Spirit with a Mage? Options

[Wacky]

Okay, in SR4 you can get a Mentor Spirit for a character that has either the Magician or the Mystic Adept quality. If you take a Mentor Spirit do you have to be a Shaman?

The two groups have moved closer and closer together and I just wanted to know if taking a Mentor is kosher for a mage?

On this subject, are there any unique magical traditions that are Mage oriented? I think every Mentor spirit or magical tradition published in the SR4 series of books is for a shaman type. If anyone knows of other groups (or has made one of their own) please let me know.

Sign--

Wacky

[Shinxy]

Basically SR4 streamlined the rules for all magician types so they all use the same framework. So now it's not just mages and shamans, there's also wujens and voodoun and druids and witches and all kinds of traditions, but they all use the same rule set. (And if you see all of those as shamans, can't help you there buddy...) And yes, all traditions can choose mentor spirits, although you'd have to figure out a good fluff reason a mage would have one.

Try black magic, chaos mages, or quaballistic magicians for some more magey options, described in Street Magic.

[DWC]

I'd say that Wuxing and Chaos Magic fall the most inline with the "scientific" approach to magic, which has defined hermeticism for the life of the game. I can see a point for someone from a Logic based tradition steering away from a Mentor spirit, but for the Charisma and Intuition based traditions the injection of the mage's personality into his use of his power is so much more prominent that the mentor spirits seem a lot more appropriate.

[Zormal]

A mentor 'spirit' can even be a concept or a symbol of sorts, which would fit to traditions with a more scientific view of magic.

Frankly it's harder for me to imagine a shaman without a mentor spirit than a mage with one, but maybe that's just mental baggage from previous editions (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[CanRay]

Shamans are more sticks and stones and herbs.

Mages are more mathematical equations, crystals, and Chips of Neil the Ork Barbarian at every point of the Summoning Star.

...

What?

[Shinxy]

I can see a point for someone from a Logic based tradition steering away from a Mentor spirit, but for the Charisma and Intuition based traditions the injection of the mage's personality into his use of his power is so much more prominent that the mentor spirits seem a lot more appropriate.

I can imagine that a magey character might use a "mentor spirit" not so much as a mentor but as a source of power- more of a mercenary relationship. Remember, mentor spirits aren't just fluff, they're also immensely powerful NPCs with their own motivations. Theoretically, a chaos mage could draw power from ANY god or totem or loa or whathaveyou, as long as he could strike a good enough bargain with it.

Ohh this is giving me some good char ideas... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

[Neraph]

I'd say that Wuxing and Chaos Magic fall the most inline with the "scientific" approach to magic, which has defined hermeticism for the life of the game.

And here I thought Hermetic Mages were the most in line with the "scientific" approach to magic...

[Wacky]

Okay, thanks for the various inputs.

You're right about me overlooking the Black and Chaos, but they're still not essentially the same as you get penelized if you try to learn one's formula from the other guy's tradition.

But I might just make a mage now with a mentor spirit...once had an NPC with the mentor spirit of Gerry Garcia...ah Stoney, you were a great NPC...

Sign--

Wacky

[Kerenshara]

My assertion (and belief) is quite simple:

I believe that a Mentor Spirit is a manifestation of a person's fundamental personality and beliefs.

So if the understanding of magic has broadened such that a Hermetic Magician can embrace the symbolism of a Mentor Spirit and accept its place in their life fundamentally deep down, I see no reason they can't have that spirit.

We used to call them Totems, an I usually still go with that. But these are idealogical, spiritual, conceptual, or religious Archetypes, common and IN common throughout human cultures, belief structures and economic status. They go by diferent names, but in the end, the are all the same.

I'm completely ok with the idea, and I don't feel anybody lost anything in the process - especially since there's a cost associated with them now, and if you see the number crunching I did in another thread, they're a net LOSS of points, no matter which you choose or how you cut it (With the possible exception of the Adversary's +2 to all Counterspelling). These spirits are about flavor, inspiration and role playing guidance, not game mechanics. I think that's always how they were intended. That's certainly how they were portrayed.

[Machiavelli]

Thats also my opinion. I see absolutely no problem, if you don´t see your mentor spirit in your dreams as the manifestation it usually has. If you take e.g. the bear-mentor-spirit, you don´t have to let a bear run around, speaking in riddles and rubbing on a tree. Bear stands for a strong will and an reserved attitude...until he gets angry. This has nothing to do with a physical manifestation, it would absolutely be enough if this is the characteristic of the mage and he only gets visions of whatever the totem wants him to say. I play a black mage with "dark-mother" as an totem, but i don´t want an old bitch sitting around in my dreams telling me stories and what i have to do. For me it just influences, or better: expresses my behaviour and i get the mentioned visions in dreams or if i meditate. This way, you can adapt every mentor spirit for every tradition.

[Ol' Scratch]

I believe that a Mentor Spirit is a manifestation of a person's fundamental personality and beliefs.

That's the way I prefer to view it myself, but the game supports mentor spirits both in that light and as unique and powerful spirits in and of themselves. Which is why they have static mentor spirits listed in the sourcebooks, as opposed to a means of creating one unique to your outlook and beliefs.

[Rasumichin]

And here I thought Hermetic Mages were the most in line with the "scientific" approach to magic...

Hermeticism isn't as scientific as it wants to be.
They are all about cause and effect, have a strongly rationalist world view, but they also drag along a lot of metaphysical baggage from ancient Greece and Egypt- which is why Street Magic recommends Greek and Egyptian gods as mentors for Hermetics.
That's where Hermetics come from, even though you won't notice much of that in your average wagemage.
Remeber that "Hermetic" comes from Hermes.

If you want an objective tradition based on empirical observation instead of revelations, there's only Chaos Magic and Psionics* (however, one could integrate mentors into that approach as well if you go for the whole "representation of the mage's unconscious" thing).

Hermeticism, however, is one of the traditions which are in common practice so far removed from their origins that a lot their practitioners do not necessarily view them as their religion and can, in fact, practice both their tradition and another religion simultaniously without too much inner conflict.
Which is also the case for Wuxia.


*yes, they're wrong. But i'm talking about the method, not wether it's outcomes are valid.

[siel]

Hermeticism isn't as scientific as it wants to be.
They are all about cause and effect, have a strongly rationalist world view, but they also drag along a lot of metaphysical baggage from ancient Greece and Egypt- which is why Street Magic recommends Greek and Egyptian gods as mentors for Hermetics.
That's where Hermetics come from, even though you won't notice much of that in your average wagemage.
Remeber that "Hermetic" comes from Hermes.

Though the thing is, those metaphysical baggage from ancient Greece and Egypt worked, right? They might not entirely understand the principle behind it and might never discover it, but as you have said, its still cause and effect. Not "I asked xx entity to rain fire upon my enemies and xx did."


Anyone think pi can be a valid mentor spirit?

[edit:]
Anyone think pi can be a good mentor spirit?

[Machiavelli]

Aehm....if a dog can jump around talking to you while peeing on a tree, PI can do the same i think.^^

[Regiment]

Anyone think pi can be a valid mentor spirit?

Positive Effects: Same as the Math SPU?

Negative Effects: Pocket protector, broken glasses bound with tape, chess club meeting priorities, a high susceptibility to wedgies and swirlies?