Touchy-explody mage, Inspired, but no time! Options

[McCummhail]

Well, for a counter-example, capsule rounds deal their normal damage AND apply the effects of the chemical. So the SR4 rules don't always lock you into a single source of damage for an attack.

BTW, this is great motivational stuff. I have new posts to intrigue me every food break. Thanks, guys.

Hahahaha. So it rolls down to GM fiat after all.

Allowing to do a full-force unarmed combat attack along with touch spellcasting would probably not unbalance the game too much.

I can imagine it actually being really devastating.
A Troll voodoo shaman with weapon focus spike gloves possessed by a spirit of man using innate spell [Death Touch] is competitive with vehicle mounted artillery.
However, that is as much due to possession as anything else.
Or investing 1 magic point as a mystic adept into killing hands+elemental strike leaves the rest of your points for magical mayhem.
A mystic adept could almost be worse with those.
And then it comes back to GM fiat on what is acceptable in play.

I would be careful about letting melee and spell damage occur, especially with multi-casting.

[McAllister]

Just let a pixie overcast Shatter. IIRC, the net hits from the touch attack AND the spellcasting would add to damage (only fair, what else would net hits on the attack test do?) but not to drain (it's indirect), so if you played the dice pools right (have a bound spirit Aid Sorcery the test, use Centering and Spellcasting(/Power) and Centering foci) I imagine it would be conceivable to out-damage a Panther. But let's roll some dice!

We're going for near-maxed, so let's say the pixie soft-capped all relevant attributes (AGI, CHA and WIL at 7) and skills (Unarmed [touch] and Spellcasting [combat] both at 5). Since we brought weapon foci into it, let's say we have a force 4 glove focus. That's 20 dice to attack; a skilled and competent (but not optimized) opponent might be rolling with 4 REA and 5 weapon skill, so let's assume 5 hits against 3, which means we're adding 2 DV to whatever the spell comes up with.

Spellcasting [combat] 5 and Magic 6 give us a base of 13. Force 4 Spellcasting focus and force 6 spirit (c'mon, you can bind one of those, right?) using Aid Sorcery add 10, an appropriate Mentor Spirit adds 2, and, well, there aren't a lot of things that add to spellcasting pools, so we should be happy with 25 dice. We know the target has 4 REA; let's be a bit generous and say he has the protection of a mage with Counterspelling 5, for a total of 9 dice to resist. 25 dice should give us 8 hits, minus 3 hits is 5. But what force did we cast it at? Let's throw caution to the wind and say 11, because odd numbers are better and Shatter has a pleasant drain code. This gives us 4P drain, which, with 14 dice from CHA + WIL, which, with 2 dice from a fetish, can be bought down to 0.

Resulting DV? ~18, if net hits from the unarmed attack go to damage, ~16 if not. And this is against anything that can be touched, object resistance be damned. It's not easy to get together these foci and keep the bound spirit around, but it might be worth it.

[Knight Saber]

I too have done a ninja mystical adept, using spells for melee attacks. With the 4A rules, I think I'd give him level 1 Improved Reflexes first, rather than such a diverse range of powers. Improved Stealth 2 for the rest.

Mystical Ninja

Attributes 240
Body 3
Agility 5
Reaction 4
Strength 2
Charisma 2
Int. 3
Logic 4
Will 5

Edge 1
Essence 6
Magic 5

Qualities +5
Magic Adept 10
Incompetant (Pistols, Longarms, Automatics) +15

20 Spellcasting 5
12 Counterspelling 3
20 Infiltration 5
16 Dodge 4
16 Unarmed 4
12 Perception 3
6 Throwing (Knives) 1 (3)

Adept Powers:
Agility Boost 1
Ultrasound Sense
Great Leap (2)
Improved Infiltrate (2)
Critical Strike (2)

Spells:
Death Touch
Shatter
Prophylaxis
Imrpoved Invisibility
Stealth
Mask

Resources 4 BP
Contacts 9 BP

[Knight Saber]

Hahahaha. So it rolls down to GM fiat after all.



I can imagine it actually being really devastating.
A Troll voodoo shaman with weapon focus spike gloves possessed by a spirit of man using innate spell [Death Touch] is competitive with vehicle mounted artillery.
However, that is as much due to possession as anything else.
Or investing 1 magic point as a mystic adept into killing hands+elemental strike leaves the rest of your points for magical mayhem.
A mystic adept could almost be worse with those.
And then it comes back to GM fiat on what is acceptable in play.

I would be careful about letting melee and spell damage occur, especially with multi-casting.

The disadvantage being you have to go up into melee combat range, which will be difficult a lot of the time, impossible at some others. If a person charges at you with glowing, empty hands, you can bet that you'll be shooting at him as much as possible.

[McAllister]

Wow... guns have not been kind to this ninja.

I'm not the only person who always maxes qualities at 35 up, 35 down, am I?

Otherwise, interesting built, only thing I'd say is 4 BP is not much for resources, but mystic adepts never have enough to go around.

[Falconer]

No, net hits on the melee don't help spell damage at all. It's simply a hurdle you need to cross to deliver the spell.

it's merely to give you the privilege of actualy bothering to roll the spell out. (you'll still suffer the drain even if you don't hit).


Touch spells are balanced, by their exceptionally low drain, which makes multi-casting them a very scary proposition. I for one, won't use hits add to drain, and don't know anyone who is.

But even there... hitting someone with 3 seperate castings for 15 damage before net hits, with a mere 3*2 drain should be explanation enough.


The only RAW method I can see to add physical damage on top of a spell is by use of the elemental aura spirit power. Which automatically adds elemental damage to anything which touches you or which you touch.

And quite frankly... getting into melee in shadowrun is still pretty easy in the typical room to room urban fighting seen. Once there, there's not much that someone not built for melee can do to run away either due to the interception rules. It's made even easier if things like the movement power from spirits are in play.

[McAllister]

So you're telling me net hits on the attack do nothing, RAW? I don't like the rule, but I'm not going to yell at you for it. If I ran the table in question, I'd say the net hits are added as dice to the dice pool for the spellcasting test, which represents the fact that it's easier to channel mana through a sturdy grip than the astral ether. Stronger "targeting link" and all that.

[Falconer]

And again, you're providing no reason why it should... perception... successfull... you see a tree. Very successfull... you see a tree.

Just because you grab a mage with zero hand to hand combat skill. Does not mean he's any worse at resisting the spell than he normally would be.

Given the nature of magic, and all the advantages it provides (this from someone who plays almost exclusively magical types), there is no good reason I can see to have this enhance damage. ESPECIALLY since there's special 'touch bonuses'


A straight adept can do an exceptional amount of damage with just basic hand to hand or a sword. Physads can get scary. There's no good reason to add more.

[McAllister]

Oh ho ho! You can argue that I'm providing no GOOD reason why it should, but argue not that I'm providing no reason. I will explain my reasoning in further depth, to prove that (whatever its quality) it does exist.

First, your example with perception is limited. Successful? I see a tree. Very successful? Well, if all there is to see is a tree, that's all I see, but if an apple thief is hiding in the tree, I'll have a better chance of seeing him. In fact, with an exceptional success, I might be able to tell how many apples he has in his pockets! I guess the principle you're trying to illustrate is "net hits aren't always useful," right? Well, it's true; they aren't always. If you beat a guard's Perception check with your Infiltration, there's no difference between "he doesn't notice you" and "he COMPLETELY doesn't notice you," is there? I'm just arguing that, in this case, there is an effect.

And what effect is that? Well, I'll begin by illustrating what happens when a targeting link (that which astrally connects a spellcaster to his target, allowing sorcery to work) is weak. Street Magic, page 29:

Since sympathetic links do not have as strong a connection to the target as material links, they make ritual spellcasting harder to perform. If the ritual team is using a sympathetic link, apply a modifier to the Ritual Spellcasting Test based on the link type, as noted on the Sympathetic Link Modifiers table (p.27). This modifier applies to all teamwork tests, as well as the leader’s final Spellcasting Test.

Now, we're agreed that sorcery cannot affect anything to which the user does not have a magical link (page 159 of street magic, if you're curious), and the above quote shows that a weak link applies penalties to Spellcasting tests. Ergo, a "strong" link, if such a thing were to exist, would probably provide a bonus to Spellasting tests, wouldn't it? Well, I believe that if sympathetic and symbolic links are "weak" links, as is targeting through optics (SR4A pg 332, spellcasting through optics gives a -3 modifier), then a direct tactile connection is stronger than a direct line-of-sight connection. Maybe brushing the target's shirt (0 net hits) isn't any stronger than a LoS link, but I should think that firmly grabbing his arm (2-3 net hits) would be, and would intensify the channeling of mana in much the same way that, if the hand were electrified, it would make that also more intense.

You may have all the game-balance reasons, fluff reasons and personal reasons in the world to disagree with me, but I assert that I'm providing a reason that more net hits is a stronger link is more dice on spellcasting.

[Knight Saber]

Wow... guns have not been kind to this ninja.

I'm not the only person who always maxes qualities at 35 up, 35 down, am I?

Otherwise, interesting built, only thing I'd say is 4 BP is not much for resources, but mystic adepts never have enough to go around.

Spending so much time studying magic, stealth and spells, who has time to go down to the firing range? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

4 is pretty tight, but it covered some lifestyle, personal electronics, armored vest and throwing knives. I didn't type up the list, as the character didn't make the cut... I went with a more conventional mage for that game.

[McCummhail]

The disadvantage being you have to go up into melee combat range, which will be difficult a lot of the time, impossible at some others. If a person charges at you with glowing, empty hands, you can bet that you'll be shooting at him as much as possible.

I have to agree with McAllister, SR has a bias towards close range combat that makes melee characters viable.

However, if something falls in the cracks of the rules and is left to GM fiat, that is fine with me.
In some games, melee will be more challenging. In some games, the power level will be much higher.

While I am not prone to give players in my game double dipping on damage (capsule rounds do no bullet damage in my games either),
that may work well as a balance in your game.

On a different note,
In further examining the Decrease [mental attribute] spells are pretty nasty,
Decrease Willpower reduces their ability to resist magic and their stun track.
Decrease Intuition makes slow people even slower if not stopped completely.
Decrease Charisma is likely to incapacitate ugly assholes in one shot.

[McAllister]

And quite frankly... getting into melee in shadowrun is still pretty easy in the typical room to room urban fighting seen. Once there, there's not much that someone not built for melee can do to run away either due to the interception rules. It's made even easier if things like the movement power from spirits are in play.

I'm flattered that you agree with me, but it sounds like you're agreeing with something I never said. Falconer was the one who pointed out how easy it is to get into melee combat. My feeling on the subject is that it takes some work to get into melee combat (i.e. set up an ambush, sneak, make sure you have plenty of cover etc. etc.) but it's certainly doable. I also agree that, once you're there, a wide variety of builds have nothing to do but full dodge, whatever good that does them.

Hmmm. Now that I look at the attack/defense situational mods, I can see a "defender in melee targeted by ranged attack" penalty to defense, but no penalty to the attacker for firing into melee. Am I to understand that, unless you're using a shotgun or a grenade, there's no chance of you hitting friendlies when you shoot into melee combat?

[Falanin]

Wait... you mean everyone in your world doesn't use IFF?

[crazyconscript]

When i have characters shooting into melee, i make them take the three die penalty and then set a threshold for what they need to get to hit their target rather than their buddy. Glitches will also hit the friend. It rarely comes up, so i dont have a set-in-stone threshold that i use. The last time it was a heavy pistol at about 10m, so i said the threshold was three. Its not perfect by any means i know, but the players seemed happy enough.

[McCummhail]

I'm flattered that you agree with me, but it sounds like you're agreeing with something I never said. Falconer was the one who pointed out how easy it is to get into melee combat. My feeling on the subject is that it takes some work to get into melee combat (i.e. set up an ambush, sneak, make sure you have plenty of cover etc. etc.) but it's certainly doable. I also agree that, once you're there, a wide variety of builds have nothing to do but full dodge, whatever good that does them.

Hmmm. Now that I look at the attack/defense situational mods, I can see a "defender in melee targeted by ranged attack" penalty to defense, but no penalty to the attacker for firing into melee. Am I to understand that, unless you're using a shotgun or a grenade, there's no chance of you hitting friendlies when you shoot into melee combat?

My apologies.

There are no longer friendly fire penalties in SR4.

No Melee friendly fire penalties. No penalty to casting in melee. Minimal penalty (-2dp) to firing a gun in melee. Defensive penalty to range attacks in melee.
These rules and other encourage having a melee point man in combat situations.

The Shadowrun Mission scenarios lean towards close to mid range encounters.
Urban combat in general makes sniping less feasible and close range weapons more advantageous.

Melee definitely has had its importance emphasized in SR4.
I conjecture this is so because it is dramatic, stylish, and popular.

I don't think we would be discussing melee range magicians otherwise.

[crazyconscript]

It never occurred to me to try it before, but I actually love the idea of a touch-mage....
Makes me want to make a Face-Mage you do NOT want to shake hands with if you know who he is (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)
Considering that i am a GM most of the time, said shaking of hands would obviously occur as their harmless looking employer betrays them as he seals the deal

[Ravor]

Personally I'm not sure that the "handshake" would have survived in the Shadows, there are just too many nasty things that you can do to someone by touching them to risk it.

However, I agree that every mage should have at least one touch spell.

[crazyconscript]

Hmm, your right. Maybe a gregarious troll then. Slaps on the back all round! (yes, i know it wouldnt be the norm, but they probably wouldnt expect it either to be fair)
If I do try and implement it, it probably wont be for a while though, as i am currently wrapping up my current campaign.

[Nows7]

My girl http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=115083 Is a Formoi Troll Possession tradition with channeling. My favorite trick is pretty nice.

Channel Spirit - lets say force 5 Task*

That gives me a 9 Agi, reaction. 10 Strength

I have Unarmed combat (martial arts) 5(7)

Reach 1.

I cast a force 9 Knockout

9 (agi) + 7 (UA combat), Reach 1 = 17 dice to hit

On a hit i do 5S due to a GM ruling at char-gen that i can option to go for damage on the attack or go for touch and get +2 dice.

Then i roll my 10 dice for spell casting vs Their will + counter spelling. Net hits add to damage. 9s + net hits

Drain comes up last, so I resist (Force 9 /2) = 4.5 round down to 4. 4 - 3 = 1

I resist one drain.

If needed I will multi-cast a small powerbolt in there as well at a second target.


The other advantage is that as a possession troll, I'm rolling 32 dice normally to soak non-magical attacks, and since i'm in front, most of those attacks come against me, not my teammates.


I've been considering picking up a Sustaining (Health) focus for a while and grabbing Decrease (charisma) to try dropping goon's that way. The problem i see with DA (cha) is that if it works it takes them out, if it doesn't then it's pretty much useless. Decrease (will) Might be better, then they are running with a smaller will power track, and will hace a crap time avoiding the second knockout - But does that matter when you do 14s anyway?

What about the [Energy] Aura spells out of street magic?



*to not be overly game breaking i specialised in task spirits - the least useful of all in combat.

[McCummhail]

My girl is a Formoi Troll Possession tradition with channeling. My favorite trick is pretty nice.

Then i roll my 10 dice for spell casting vs Their will + counter...

Hold the train right there!
How can you cast spells while possessed if the spirit doesn't have innate spell?

Posesion AND VESSELS
When a spirit possesses a vessel, the combined being that results is dual-natured, has Immunity to Normal Weapons (p. 289, SR4), and boasts all of the spirit’s powers and skills. Occasionally a possessing spirit’s nature manifests through the vessel in an effect similar to a shamanic mask (p. 168, SR4).
Living Vessels
If the vessel is a living creature, the spirit’s Force is added to the vessel’s Physical attributes.
While possessed, the spirit’s Mental and Special attributes are used (which means that a possessed technomancer cannot access Resonance), with Initiative recalculated as normal (use the spirit’s normal Initiative Passes). The spirit is in full physical control of the vessel, but does not have access to the host’s knowledge, skills, or experience. The mind of the vessel remains in
whatever state it was when possession began;if conscious, it becomes an impotent witness
locked inside its own body for the duration.

Emphasis mine.
Is this something that is house-ruled at your table?

[McAllister]

Dunno about their house rules, but Channeling would seem to allow the character to cast spells whilst possessed. It says "The channeling magician can use her own skills and has fine motor control over her body while still enjoying the enhancing benefits of the Possession power." Doesn't specifically say yea or nay to spellcasting, but that probably counts as "using her skills," so I'd allow it.

'Course, without the metamagic, that would RAW illegal. However, RAW legal would be to say "I'm a troll. Possess my body, then use it to break the bad guys."

[Stahlseele]

What would happen if the touch spell was cast before being possessed?

[McCummhail]

Ok.
I guess we have always played with
possession being slightly more restrictive.

Channeling grants normal use of your body and skills,
but not magic.

The mage can either channel the spirit,
or channel their own energy.

Maybe that's also why possession
hasn't become a major balance issue.

[McCummhail]

What would happen if the touch spell was cast before being possessed?

As to your question Stahseele,
I do not think you can 'hold' or sustain an 'instant' spell.

I don't have a reference for that,
but I did find a raw resolution for the other conundrum;

Touch: The caster must touch the target in order to cast
the spell on it. As noted on p. 195, SR4, touching an unwilling
target requires an unarmed attack. This attack succeeds even if
the caster and target tie on the Opposed Test. This accounts for
the fact that the caster does not actually have to attack and hurt
the target, he simply needs to make contact. In fact, this unarmed
attack will not cause damage even if the caster succeeds,
as he is pre-occupied more with casting the spell than inflicting
physical harm.

(Emphasis mine)
Which clarifies the question of whether you can punch and spell simultaneously.

[Stahlseele]

Ok, yeah, i don't know my way around magic/spells all that much.
I don't even know if a spell is instant or doesn't need water added.