Limiter, Forced Cyberware Options

[Chrysalis]

The troll cried and mewled. His head was in a steel gripping vice. Prydz looked on curiously as the surgical unit flashed on its red laser reticule and started up the drill. The drill dug into the skull, spitting out hair, skin, and crushed bone. Another appendage came in to replace the drill, cutting its way through the blood brain barrier for the third appendange to start its work on implanting a commlink.

“What was his transgression?� Prydz asked curiously.

“He was a mage or a technomancer. I can’t remember. They will all come out the same. The price of lying is harsh to be a member.�

So, what happens to a technomancer or mage who has his/her parts replaced forcibly with secondhand cyberware? What if this happens to a PC?

(I mean obviously you don't behave like a babboon if the GM describes the scene above, by jumping on the table urinating on it, followed by setting it (the table) on fire. That would take effort.)

So besides passive-aggressive reactions of the player, what could a character do in the SR universe?

[Stahlseele]

What happens is easy enough. Essence Loss, everything that comes with that, physical and psychological traumata.
What you can do against something like that? Save your last bullet for yourself, otherwise you're shit out of luck.
Deal with it. That's the way it is in the World of Shadowrun.

[the_real_elwood]

If you're talking about, what does the player do about their loss of abilities? I don't know if it'd fix everything, but if the player has the freedom they can get the cyberware removed and then get gene therapy to fix the essence loss. But in your specific example, I think the player ought to count their lucky stars that it's a commlink that got forcibly implanted instead of a cranial bomb.

[CodeBreaker]

Agreed. Its a gritty world. Bad things happen. What would probably result from that specific example is a fairly long process of roleplaying out my character coming to terms with the loss of some of his power. He would continue to attempt to use the Resonance like he had before, and that might result in some dangerous Fading (I used to be able to summon this Sprite, I'll be fine!). Then some questions might arise. Is this a one time thing? Am I going through Fading, like the Otaku did? And when I finally came to terms with what had happened I would go to extreme lengths to pay the bastards back.

And then I would Submerge and spend some Karma to get my Resonance back. A significant set back, but not one that cannot be overcome.

[Tachi]

And when I finally came to terms with what had happened I would go to extreme lengths to pay the bastards back.

My thoughts almost exactly. After all, if they forcibly implant a BUNCH of second-hand ware, you don't have much reason not to have it all replaced with delta, come back, and eat their heart while their children watch and scream. But hey, that's just me, and I'm kinda crazy like that.


Btw, don't forget to kill the family afterwards, you don't need to be dealing with vendettas years later when you're getting old and slowing down.

[Glyph]

It really depends on how badly the character is maimed. If the character is a mage with lots of points invested in magical abilities, and that mage becomes a mundane, then you might as well start a new character. If that mage loses two points of Magic from forcibly-implanted 'ware, he can get better eventually (replace the second-hand 'ware with better stuff, and initiate to get back the lost Magic), and get revenge.

It depends on the circumstances, too. The SR universe is a grim one, where fates worse than death are common. But if it's just the GM being a dick, then don't dismiss the urinating on the table/setting it on fire thing out of hand.

I think that a captive mage or technomancer could be burned out through drugs or similar means, though - performing surgery on someone and giving them a piece or 'ware seems kind of silly. Although it would be plausible if, say, it was a headware that also kept the mage's captors in communication with him, recorded the mages sensory impressions so they could nab his associates eventually, and had an explosive charge to keep the character in hand. Which goes back to the "might as well start a new character" thing. But "Nya-ha-ha! We're involuntarily implanting a commlink in you!" seems... goofy.

Although doing it to someone who is still conscious, without any anesthetic, is a nice, dystopian touch. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

[Pendaric]

Curl up and cry, take risks until someone ends your life for you, rage, revenge, maybe adapt and find peace?

Depends on the individual. Someone once forcibily implanted a dragon with a datajack, things did not go well for that organisation/individual after their pet project got free and reported their actions. Dragon adapted, upgraded and made its draconic mission to deal with them.

Any sentient being can break under enough pressure over a long enough time line. The lucky few die before they find that breaking point or overcome it with time. Human society tends to prefer these stories to the hero broke, lives their remaining days a shattered being and is never be the same stories.

So most i have met prefer to roleplay the, am messed up but OK to get even or good death, to massacistic anguish of despair.

Roleplay is meant to be fun after all. So when faced with the "Really real world and there aint no coming back" drawing a line and playing a new character may be lot more fun and realistic.

[Ravor]

Meh, get it out asap and use your newfound Essence Hole to install useful toys. Then use those new toys to turn the table on those bastards, including cutting off their balls and making them eat them.

[the_real_elwood]

Meh, get it out asap and use your newfound Essence Hole to install useful toys. Then use those new toys to turn the table on those bastards, including cutting off their balls and making them eat them.

I imagine someone out there in the 6th world has developed tamper-proof cyberware that can't be removed without destroying the cyberware and/or the brain it's attached to. Something like that would be what you'd expect severe criminals to have forcibly implanted. Or an option for headware memory for secure couriers for any number of groups (criminal syndicates all the way to spy agencies). If a runner got implanted with something like THAT, it could be the basis for an entire adventure to find them a delta clinic to get it out, and then find and get revenge on whoever put it in.

I also think there ought to be a low-essence piece of cyberware that could be forcibly implanted to completely suppress magical talent while it's implanted. The sort of thing you'd expect that they'd implant in mages when they get to prison.

[Ravor]

Well, in theory I suppose your "tamper proof" cyber could be simulated by implanting a canial bomb that is set to explode if the cyber is tampered with, dangerous but not fool proof.

As for the anti-mage cyber, while thankfully not as effective as you suggest, I seem to remember a piece of mana-tech that could in theory be used as an implant, I'll have to do some reading and get back to you...

[the_real_elwood]

Well, in theory I suppose your "tamper proof" cyber could be simulated by implanting a canial bomb that is set to explode if the cyber is tampered with, dangerous but not fool proof.

As for the anti-mage cyber, while thankfully not as effective as you suggest, I seem to remember a piece of mana-tech that could in theory be used as an implant, I'll have to do some reading and get back to you...

None of that stuff is something you'd want to hit players in your group with willy-nilly, but I think that those would be things that would be pretty useful for building NPCs.

[CodeBreaker]

Is that not delving into the realms of Manatech, something that is iffy at the current level of technology? Hell, most of the Manatech they already have is biological based (Be if FAB, those Slug thingies, or something else). And do they not already have drugs that supress a persons ability to use Mana? Even if they didn't it would probably be more profitable to a) Put your Awakened prisoners to work or b) Drug them up so much they can hardly tell where they are anymore.

And you can basically make Tamper-Proof Cyber already, it just involves attaching really sophisticated Cranial Bombs with certain triggers. One false move by the Cyberdoc and BOOM goes the rest of your head. Would need to be a fair sized bomb I guess, people in the fluff have survived cranial bombs going off.

*Fiddles, Ravor snuck in while I was posting*

[Ravor]

Turn a set of Magecuffs into an implant and you've got a seriously pissed off mage who is on the hunt for a Pain Editor.

[Ravor]

I don't know the_real_elwood I don't think a "tamper proof" mage-cuff implant tied to an internal commlink or some other long range comm device is out of line for a mage that is foolish enough to get captured but too useful to kill or keep imprisoned long enough for the psych-IC to take affect. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[kanislatrans]

Well, in theory I suppose your "tamper proof" cyber could be simulated by implanting a canial bomb that is set to explode if the cyber is tampered with, dangerous but not fool proof.

As for the anti-mage cyber, while thankfully not as effective as you suggest, I seem to remember a piece of mana-tech that could in theory be used as an implant, I'll have to do some reading and get back to you...

how bout an auto injector full of Kurari or plain old cyanide? tamper with the cyber and get a load of nasty straight to the blood stream. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[Ravor]

Because nothing says "Get your hands off me you filthy apes!" like the ability to turn the cyberdoc into fine red mist. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[kanislatrans]

Because nothing says "Get your hands off me you filthy apes!" like the ability to turn the cyberdoc into fine red mist. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

hmm, have to agree with you on that one. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

difference between the doc saying"wow, look at that, never seen that set up!" and"Umm, I need to ahh...go check on something. Nurse, could you um,close this one up while I run,err ummm, change my shorts and take something to stop my shaking hands?" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[pbangarth]

My thoughts almost exactly. After all, if they forcibly implant a BUNCH of second-hand ware, you don't have much reason not to have it all replaced with delta, come back, and eat their heart while their children watch and scream. But hey, that's just me, and I'm kinda crazy like that.


Btw, don't forget to kill the family afterwards, you don't need to be dealing with vendettas years later when you're getting old and slowing down.

No, no.

Eat his children's hearts while he watches. Then kill him. Vendetta eliminated, and more pain to him.

[MKX]

So besides passive-aggressive reactions of the player, what could a character do in the SR universe?

Aggressive-Aggressive reactions.
Truck + Anfo or some other large amounts of cheap explosive, send bitches into orbit

[tsuyoshikentsu]

Or just throw some K-10 into his kids.

[Kerenshara]

In all seriousness, and in answe to the OP, it's going to depend.

If I'm already an advanced character, and I am just "reduced" or diminished, but I still have some access to my abilities, then I may go along with it unhappily. If I've been stripped of my abilities and lost most of what I invested in while the rest of the party is unaffected, then ... I'm probably shopping for a new GM.

Bottom line is this: if you're going to do something that nasty (OOC terms, here) to a PC, you either need to be punishing them (Player and PC both) for willful stupidity above and beyond, or you'd best get some buy-in from the player ahead of time unless it's party-wide and everybody's getting cut back similarly. No, I know the 6th World's dark and gritty as drek, but it's a game and we play for fun. Destroying a person's beloved character's heart and soul just because you can... just make it simple and have somebody hoze them down with miniguns or something like a tac nuke and call it a day. Taking the time to attack such a core element of their efforts in such a spectacularly vicious (IC here) way, you've got to be careful.

And like it was said, seems there are other ways to achieve the same ends without giving ANY bonus back, but then again, just waste them and call it done.

My biggest worry, if doing it without balancing the party level, is making that player (and character) feel left out and ineffectual, and that can damage not just a party, but friendships as well, because a well-developed character is a lot like a child, and one thing history shows over and over is that parents don't always react rationally when their childeren are threatened or especially when harmed - or maimed intentionally and cruelly in a pre-meditated way.

We're not talking pure RP values here, we're talking capability damage. RP only things, you can pretty much do as you please, but buy-in is still better. If you're making big cuts on that character sheet...

[Tachi]

Now, now folks, it's one thing to whack innocent children, I'm perfectly willing to go that far, even eating their hearts as our dear friend pbangarth suggests is acceptable as long as they die quickly, but torturing the little bastards or pumping them full of drugs is a bit much. After all, it's not their fault mommy or daddy was a world-class hemorrhoid in dire need of lancing.


Edit: Sorry, had to go kill a rattlesnake in the garage. Seriously. On the bright side, I get a new rattlesnake-skin hatband. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

I'd have to agree with Kerenshara on the seriously negative effects this could have on a game, especially if the Player doesn't adjust well in the face of adversity, or it was done to a particularly favored character. Also, if the GM was a real prick about it, something like this could easily turn into the proverbial "falling cow from space" type of situation. On the other hand, if the player has become dissatisfied with the direction his character has taken, but doesn't want to kill him off, this could be a good device to role-play the change in direction. But, that's just my .02 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) .

[the_real_elwood]

Is that not delving into the realms of Manatech, something that is iffy at the current level of technology? Hell, most of the Manatech they already have is biological based (Be if FAB, those Slug thingies, or something else). And do they not already have drugs that supress a persons ability to use Mana? Even if they didn't it would probably be more profitable to a) Put your Awakened prisoners to work or b) Drug them up so much they can hardly tell where they are anymore.

And you can basically make Tamper-Proof Cyber already, it just involves attaching really sophisticated Cranial Bombs with certain triggers. One false move by the Cyberdoc and BOOM goes the rest of your head. Would need to be a fair sized bomb I guess, people in the fluff have survived cranial bombs going off.

*Fiddles, Ravor snuck in while I was posting*

For an in-game explanation for an implant that prevents spellcasting, I was thinking along the lines of a small brain implant that stimulates/impedes function in a certain brain area that's necessary for spellcasting. Something that's not enough to impede other functions, but prevents the specific mental processes necessary to use magic. I guess something like that would be taking a bit of a liberty with the currently established science canon in-game, but it's not completely outrageous.

[Glyph]

I agree that messing with a character in this way can elicit strong reactions from the player, whether it is part of the "gritty" genre or not. Also, note how nearly every response about the character's reaction involved getting revenge somehow.

That's another reason to be careful in using this against a PC. Once you do this, the player will be obsessed with getting revenge, and impatient with anything that sidetracks it. Don't do this if the group is committed to a big plot arc (stopping the Universal Brotherhood or whatever). The player won't be interested in the other plots, or meeting a potential love interest, or anything but getting the bastards back. And if you make the bastards too untouchable (the PC doesn't know who they were, or they are too powerful to take on), then the player will be likely to lose interest in the game altogether, or at the least become a lot more apathetic, callous, and cynical.

[LurkerOutThere]

Personally I'd presume that anyone unilaterally powerfull enough tocapture and implant me and then cAtch and release me is powerfullly enough to outrightt kill me. Disapear, get it fixed and avoid. shadowrunners loose escalating MAD scenarios with those kind of folks.